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LJWorld.com weblogs Sharpening My Pen

This is What Class Warfare Looks Like

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This was done by a group called The Christian Left, picked up by Daily Kos. Permission was granted to lift the image as it was made downloadable. They have no problem with anyone spreading their message and say so.

EDIT
I just found out that the original chart came from this article for The Center for American Progress: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/02/tax_breaks_infographic.html

Comments

Benjamin Roberts 3 years, 7 months ago

So those who don't have, but want more of it, make war on those that do have and wish to keep it. Thanks, Cait48, for putting a picture to that which conservatives have been saying all along.

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notanota 3 years, 7 months ago

PT Barnum would have loved you.

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Dispersant 3 years, 7 months ago

Did I say that says....I'm going to be just as rich as the rich guys some day. As long as I keep it up and follow all the rules. It's going to be glorious!

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funkdog1 3 years, 7 months ago

I'll say it one more time, slowly and clearly: Those who have don't make what they have all by themselves. Those who don't have are the ones who do the dirty work for the ones who have. The ones who have could share a little more.

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funkdog1 3 years, 7 months ago

It's funny you should say that I am what greed looks like. My spouse and I make decent money for ourselves. We save. We donate. We volunteer. We've had to bail out a few of our relatives more than once. We also don't begrudge the taxes we pay.

My father, on the other hand, is a self-made millionare who pinches pennies, rarely donates, never volunteers, rarely shares his wealth with his family (he'd rather see them go on public assistance when they fall on hard times) and cusses out every single cent he's ever had to pay in taxes. If he leaves me his wealth, I won't begrudge the "death taxes" that I'll have to pay, because that's basically free money coming to me anyway.

Before I got to where I am, I worked sh*t jobs for 10 years. I worked hard, got paid crap and was rarely acknowledged for my work except that management was always pissed when I'd quit to move on to the next crap job. Rather than offer me a litte more or even a lousy pat on the back to keep me around, they'd just hire in some other kid to work for minimum wage.

My spouse actually worked a job for awhile where the boss made sure everyone got good wages, good benefits and vacations. But he sold the company, and my spouse is back to working under corporate incompetence. (Incidentally, when the boss sold the company, he actually shared some of the money with his employees before he left, because he acknowledged that he could not have built he company without them. Now that's the way you run a business.)

I have absolutely no problem with the free market, except that greed makes people behave inhumanely toward each other, which is completely and totally immoral.

The reason that we live together in socieites is to help each other. It's simply easier to raise food together, help each other when we're sick, do work for each other, etc., etc., etc.

No person lives in a vacuum. No one is successful all on their own. That is a falicy. Many times, luck and priveledge are a HUGE factors in peoples' successes.

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

Yet corporations, who are afforded the legal status of "people" with all the privileges thereof, are not taxed like people. Despite the fact that corporations need highways to transport their goods, need fire, ambulance and police services to safely conduct their business and need educational services to attract decent employees and to educate their own workforce, they refuse to pay a share of the burden and fully expect their workforce to do it for them simply because they had the largesse to give them a crappy job. No one is asking corporations to "give more". They're just simply asking for them to give their fair share when they don't want to give anything at all.

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

"who are afforded the legal status of "people" with all the privileges thereof"

Which corporations do you see filling out a ballot at your precinct on election day?

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overthemoon 3 years, 7 months ago

Have you been asleep for two years? 'Citizens United' ring any bells? Its now the law as stated by Supreme Court decision. Corporations can buy any vote through shams like 'the Tea Party'... a wholly corporate sponsored voting block.

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

As usual, the right wing accusation betrays. Unable to acknowledge their own reliance on others, they project their self loathing. Tis sad.

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

I admit it. Risking capital creates jobs, but only in a well regulated society. The argument is about the regulation. Your accusation that funkdog is the embodiment of greed for suggesting that those who have accumulated (currently anyway) greater material wealth should contribute more to the maintenance of the society which allowed their success speaks to your own unwillingness to admit the collective nature of our previously successful economy and society. Given the choice between cutting early education efforts for citizens and lowering taxes on vacation homes, it takes a certain pathology to choose the latter. It is a pathology which is spreading rapidly through the patient, I'll give you that, but a pathology, nonetheless.

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jafs 3 years, 7 months ago

And, of course, businesses can't function without employees - it's not a one-way street.

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

Well, I am not so willing to assume that private entities will provide and know that a government entity is committed to doing so. Just because it is possible that a non-government entity may provide a service does not mean it happens.

Take the example I have cited, early education efforts:

On what basis do you assert private entities will deliver the services if government does not do so? Has any entity ever provided the services at the levels provided by the government with the funding being cut? If so, please provide examples.

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

I did not ask about thousands of examples. I am asking a specific question regarding why it is good policy to cut government funding for early education initiatives and transfer the savings made by those cuts to lower taxes so the wealthy may better afford vacation homes. Government frequently involves itself in areas in which the private market cannot or will not provide services and I assert that is the case in this example. Again, when has private industry ever undertaken early education initiatives, were they more or less successful than the government programs and do you support cutting government early education programs so that vacation home tax breaks may be granted?

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yankeevet 3 years, 7 months ago

So what does this chart mean?

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notanota 3 years, 7 months ago

It means that if we truly wish to have shared sacrifice, there are plenty of opportunities to share it without cutting programs that directly benefit the poor.

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

Then those that don't wish to sacrifice should not share in the equal benefits of the government. This means that anyone with an income over a certain amount who wishes to opt out of taxation can get their own police force to protect themselves and their property, hire their own firefighters, build their own roads, buy their own libraries, automatically lose any representation in any US court, thus having any lawsuit for any cause brought against them in this country automatically lost. In short, if they do not wish to exercise the responsibilities of citizenship, they are free to give it up and give up the benefits thereof. Think about it.

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

Equal?!

Government of, by and for the powerful and multinational monopoly hardly showers equal benefits.

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

"Then those that don't wish to sacrifice should not share in the equal benefits of the government.

OK.

Early Childhood Programs - We have no kids.

Low Income Housing Programs - We pay our own mortgage. It is not FHA.

WIC - We pay cash at checkers for what we eat.

Teacher training etc - See No Kids Above

Job Training - I was never trained for my job except by attending employer-funded classes and seminars. Actually, I'm just naturally good at it.

Home energy assistance - we pay our gas and electric bills with cash.

Community Heath Centers - We are covered, health, dental and vision by two policies. We sometimes make money for seeing the doctor, dentist or optometrist.

Homeless grants - we own our home, along with the bank.

Legal services for poor - we have little need for legal services, but on the rare occasions we have, we payed cash.

Family Planning - No kids planned. So far so good.

All programs at risk - we don't use but are forced to pay for.

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Mari Aubuchon 3 years, 7 months ago

To the Conservatives and Libertarians: It always amazes me just how willing you are to defend the right of those with wealth and power to maintain both. Why?
Why do you want the wealthy to, on average, pay a lower percentage of their income in federal taxes than many middle class Americans? Why shouldn't income from capital gains, a major source for most of the wealthy, be taxed at the same rate as the interest we get from our savings accounts? Why, in a time when individuals, communities, and states are struggling financially, would you oppose even the end of the Bush era tax cuts?

Do you believe that you will be rewarded for your unwavering support with a great job or wealth of your own if the government is limited to "roads, jails, and guns"?

I really want to know why you are fighting.

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Mari Aubuchon 3 years, 7 months ago

It certainly seems to work rather well for the Scandinavians.

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Mari Aubuchon 3 years, 7 months ago

Not that you are in the habit of actually answering questions, but, just in case, what are these supposed negative consequences of raising the taxes of the wealthy?

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BobbyDean 3 years, 7 months ago

So what Milton Friedman lovers' website did you cut and paste that from

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Melinda Black 3 years, 7 months ago

#2 is really sticking in my craw. I have an example from the real world that contradicts this flippant little talking point. Copying and pasting is so much easier than actually feeling compassion for your fellow man so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

I ran a successful sole proprietorship for 5 years. I was at a point where I was ready to add another employee to payroll. However, my husband was laid off as a direct result of the crisis in the financial industry and along with his job, went my health coverage. Since I have a pre-existing condition, I was unable to secure private insurance at a rate our now single income family could afford. The only solution was to take a job back in the corporate world and shutter my entrepreneurial efforts. Closing my business had the net effect of reducing jobs, not creating jobs.

As a small business owner, I would have gladly paid extra taxes to fund public health care. I know many other people who would take the entrepreneurial leap if it weren't for the golden handcuffs of insurance. Obamacare is good for small business. I only regret that it didn't come soon enough to save mine.

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Mari Aubuchon 3 years, 7 months ago

When you spew forth "facts" that are completely unsubstantiated and, when faced with actual data, just keep repeating yourself. For example, your old "wages increased and prices decreased when the market was freer"nonsense. Not only was this untrue, but consider for a moment why this CANNOT be true.

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BobbyDean 3 years, 7 months ago

Looks like we got us a graduate from the Pee Wee Herman school of debate.

You sure do like to throw around questionable statistics, but you never do seem to be able tell us where you got them from. That's not data, that's just random numbers.

I've read Mari's post a few times, and I still can't figure out how you got "nuh-uh" from that. S/he was replying to your question. Nuh-uh sounds like a response to a statement, not a question. If anyone's a nuh-uh'er here, my guess is it's you.

Oh, by the way, if your wages increase while your prices decrease, you aren't gonna make it as a businessman - just pack it in now before you have to sell your granny's glass eye.

And, yes, businesses will do everything they can to lower wages. You seem to think that workers are a rare commodity. In a free market, businesses don't have to compete on wages for low-skilled jobs, because there's always someone desperate enough to take slave wages. And if you don't think they would (and do) fix wages with each other, then you got less sense than a skunk's got friends.

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

And we don't even have to consider friends of skunks, we have the current illegal immigrant example of what employers do when permitted. The most unscrupulous among them break the laws and either force others to sink to their level or quit the business.

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

Pretty good advancements made from about 1950 through 1980.

But let's turn the question around. Won't poverty and societal problems be increased by consolidating more and more wealth and power in the hands of the few and corporate board of directors?

What good has come of the right wingers efforts to import labor to this country to drive down wages?

What good has come of "free" trade policies that ship American jobs overseas and lower American worker wages?

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

So you are in favor of a tax policy that increases wealth amongst a large Middle Class vs. consolidating it in the hands of the few?

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Mari Aubuchon 3 years, 7 months ago

Of those in the lowest 20%, 95% of them will move up to a higher income bracket within 15 years.

The study you got this from has been totally discredited.

First of all, this study followed 3,725 individuals, not 50K families, ages 16 and over who remained part of the University of Michigan's Panel Survey on Income Dynamics for a 16-year period. Also, the participants moved from the lowest 20% to the highest three quintiles or 60%.

Not only is that Cox and Alm study as old as the hills, but it has also been discredited because of poor research design. For one thing, the majority of the lowest-earning quintile were high school and college students and young, entry-level unskilled workers. Needless to say, most of these people had considerably higher incomes 16 years later. Most 35 year olds have higher incomes than they did at 19. Just because you are no longer a "poor" college student does not mean that you have actually climbed the ladder from the socioeconomic class into which you were born.

In truth, income mobility has fallen in the US over the past 40 years. Here is an article concerning this issue,complete with links to a study by the that commie Federal Reserve Bank of Boston: http://www.bnet.com/blog/financial-bu.

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Mari Aubuchon 3 years, 7 months ago

Did you even read what I wrote?

CAN YOU READ?????

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

"It always amazes me just how willing you are to defend the right of those with wealth and power to maintain both. Why? "

It's there money and power. It belongs to them. It other people want some, let them work for it.

"Why do you want the wealthy to, on average, pay a lower percentage of their income in federal taxes than many middle class Americans? "

Because everyone should pay the same dollar amount for equal services.

"Why shouldn't income from capital gains, a major source for most of the wealthy, be taxed at the same rate as the interest we get from our savings accounts?"

Because capital gains are already taxed at the same rate as the interest from savings accounts when the money is put into a savings account.

"Why, in a time when individuals, communities, and states are struggling financially, would you oppose even the end of the Bush era tax cuts?"

Because I'd rather see cuts than see my taxes or my employers taxes rise.

"Do you believe that you will be rewarded for your unwavering support with a great job or wealth of your own if the government is limited to "roads, jails, and guns"?"

Those aren't the constitutionally-mandated goverment responsibilities. Re-ask the question with the proper words. Also, yes. Every dollar that isn't taxed from me increases my wealth.

"I really want to know why you are fighting."

I really want to know why you think it's OK for the government to take from some to give to others, although I already know the answer, comrade.

I'll fight because it is unethical to take take property by force from society for the benefit of a subset of society.

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jafs 3 years, 7 months ago

There is the question of how the power and wealth were gotten, isn't there?

We don't have equal services.

Capital gains should be taxed at the same rate as regular income, in my view.

Is it only those things that you don't benefit from personally the cuts you'd like to see?

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

"There is the question of how the power and wealth were gotten, isn't there?"

Yes. There are two relevant answers:

A Legally B: Not Legally.

In case of A, the money should not be confiscated to subsidize the lives of people that won't support themselves.

In case of B, after conviction, sentence the criminal according to law.

"We don't have equal services."

True. The parasites use government services several orders of magnitude more often than taxpayers.

"Is it only those things that you don't benefit from personally the cuts you'd like to see?"

I don't benefit from anything the government does outside of roads, and I pay for those with gas taxes and vehicle registration. In fact, most everything run by government makes my life worse.

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jafs 3 years, 7 months ago

What about legally, but immorally?

There are significant areas of our services that are used much more by the wealthy and businesses - various courts come immediately to mind.

If you really don't think that you are and have benefited from anything the government has done, I think you're very mistaken.

And, it doesn't really answer my question - would you be in favor of cutting services that you personally benefit from?

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

"What about legally, but immorally?"

Who's morals? How would you like for me to dictate your morals? No, disregard that, you'd like it too much. How would you like Jerry Falwell dictating your morals?

"And, it doesn't really answer my question - would you be in favor of cutting services that you personally benefit from?

Name some that I don't pay for with user fees or specific taxes and I'll let you know.

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jafs 3 years, 7 months ago

I get your point about morality.

But just because something's legal doesn't make it right.

Well, I assume you benefit from our national defense?

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Flap Doodle 3 years, 7 months ago

How's about some attribution for your graphic? Or did you just take it away from somebody whom you thought had too many graphics?

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

You're right, snap. It was my mistake from a post done in haste. See above.

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Mari Aubuchon 3 years, 7 months ago

I am glad you posted this, Cait.

It was originally created by a group called The Christian Left. I am quite certain that they have no problem with it being shared.

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

No they don, Mari. They made the graphic downloadable so it could be shared.

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Mari Aubuchon 3 years, 7 months ago

So it is. will have to forward the rest of this article to the friend with TCL who sent me the graphic. Thanks.

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Flap Doodle 3 years, 7 months ago

I bet they'd rather the user acknowledge the source rather than simply taking it for her own use.

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

Still harping on that Snap? Other people aren't as greedy as you. You also have no concept of a viral video, image or graphic.

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

I note you seem to have benefited from just such a "taking" of your avatar artwork.

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overthemoon 3 years, 7 months ago

Its gone totally viral and is being shared widely.

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bad_dog 3 years, 7 months ago

See scott3460's 9:01 post for the "real" irony/hypocrisy, dist...

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geekin_topekan 3 years, 7 months ago

Greatest nation the world has ever seen?

This has all been done before. England 1620? Remember?

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

I actually had attributions on the original post. Due to my (continued) problems with the clunkiness of the LJW client (and their insistence that you do your own HTML code when there are any number of WYSIWYG editors out there), the attribution got lost. The post has been edited to add the attributions back. I apologize if the lack of attributions made Snap uncomfortable. I hope this helps soothe his faux distress over someone else's possible property rights. I say "faux" because he really had no concern about the actual owner of the graphic. He was just trying to score off of someone to whom he feels intellectually inferior.

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Flap Doodle 3 years, 7 months ago

cait, your psychologist skills aren't worth a plugged nickle. Stick to rabble-rousing.

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bad_dog 3 years, 7 months ago

Yet snap's hypocrisy is priceless...

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

In a great little piece of "free market" guerrilla warfare, on Thursday all of the Madison firefighters who used M&I Bank (a major funder of Scott Walker's campaign), collectively closed their accounts and withdrew an aggregate of over $800,000. This is a drop in the bucket for a bank that has multi millions in assets but it was enough to force the bank to close their doors and lock them at 3PM to prevent a run. The firefighters are now doing a mass campaign urging people that have accounts with M&I to close those accounts and bank elsewhere.

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

And this is the way to end the abuse we have been experiencing at the hands of the greedy and unscrupulous - starve the beast.

For those who do not wish to fund the Koch brothers efforts, here is a list of products they sell:

Angel Soft toilet paper Brawny paper towels Dixie plates, bowls, napkins and cups Mardi Gras napkins and towels Quilted Northern toilet paper Soft 'n Gentle toilet paper Sparkle napkins Vanity fair napkins Zee napkins Georgia-Pacific paper products and envelopes All Georgia-Pacific lumber and building products

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Mari Aubuchon 3 years, 7 months ago

I would like to add INVISTA to your list, which Koch acquired in 2004. They make LYCRA® fiber, COOLMAX® fabric, STAINMASTER® carpet, ANTRON® carpet fiber, CORDURA® fabric, and COMFOREL® fiberfill.

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

Georgia Pacific also packages for "generic" products. Check the back of the packaging. If it says anything about GP don't buy it.

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scott3460 3 years, 7 months ago

Thank you, that's good information. I'll be voting with my dollars.

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

I vote by actively not buying union-made goods if an alternative is available. It's the only other vote we get that matters.

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Bob_Keeshan 3 years, 7 months ago

Those who don't have pay considerably more in taxes than those who have.

In Kansas, they pay 50% more in taxes as a percentage of their income than those who have.

All this whining about those who don't have relying on the government, yet you never ask yourself about all their high powered lobbyists? Maybe that's because the only ones with high powered lobbyists, lobbyists paid big bucks to make sure the government hands over big bucks, are those who have.

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George Lippencott 3 years, 7 months ago

I agree with all of the alternatives. Take them. That will leave us only 1 trillion 900 billion in the hole.

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

What class warfare really looks like: the host, AKA the middle class, scratching off the human parasites that are too lazy to work for their own living.

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BobbyDean 3 years, 7 months ago

Ayn Rand couldn't have said it better herself. Yeah, scratch off those lazy good-for-nothings! We all know the type - people who never do a real day's work in their lives, and then expect to sit around and collect Social Security checks and get free medical care off of our dime! People like that Ayn Rand b**ch. Lazy bloodsucking parasite! Ayn Rand would know what to do with people like Ayn Rand!

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Flap Doodle 3 years, 7 months ago

Speaking of WI: "...In sum, what we have here is a bourgeois revolution with an overweight millionaire capitalist as ringleader, a bunch of perfectly well-off professionals comparing themselves to the people who fought against the dehumanizing institution of human bondage and the sickening racial discrimination that followed, media drones who immediately paint anything right wing “racist” because of the color of the President’s skin, and elected officials who leave their posts like crybabies only to be lauded as heroes instead of shirkers. Outrageous!" Read the rest at: http://bigjournalism.com/mikemetroulas/2011/03/13/wisconsin-2011-smorgasbord-of-outrage/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BigJournalism+%28Big+Journalism%29

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Bob_Keeshan 3 years, 7 months ago

Why don't you move back to Kenya already?

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

RI I doubt you would recognize real class warfare if it smacked you upside the head.

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kristopherfisk 3 years, 7 months ago

Cait,

I really want a new car to make my commute to work more fun. I deserve to have some fun, right? Well, I was wondering, would you mind sacrificing a little to help me make this happen? I think a grand would go a good ways towards it. I mean, you do believe in sacrifice, right? And I do have less than you. I just want us to be equal (but I don't want to work for it; it's easer to ask. Then take.)

Thanks!

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

Sure. Let me check how many babies I'll have to pull off of WIC and starve to get you that tax cut so you can have that new car. You won't have to work for it any harder than any other CEO. Just ask Scott Walker. And honey, if you have less than I do, you have nothing. because less than nothing is still nothing.

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

WHile you are feeling like giving things away for free, can I get a Ranger bass boat, about 21 foot with a Mercury 300, GPS, depth finder, trolling motor etc? Don't feel obligated to spend more than S70,000. I don't want to be greedy with your money.

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kristopherfisk 3 years, 7 months ago

You do have something. It's called time. See, if you used it productively to earn, rather than just complain about how unfair everything is, then maybe you'd have something. That's the way it really works. It's not easy, and it's not pretty, but there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

I'm very aware of that, kris. But just having "time" means little when you don't have the body to "produce". I'm part of the "old and broken"; a class that many of the oligarchy would be more than happy to leave out on an ice floe.

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jafs 3 years, 7 months ago

Unless, of course, you happen to be a CEO who has a contract guaranteeing a generous severance package.

Then you can run the company into the ground, and get fired, and walk away with plenty of money.

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

Maybe all you larryville leftists should become CEOs and donate all your corporations profits to the homeless and/or other various parasites on society.

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jafs 3 years, 7 months ago

I take it that means you have no problems with the scenario I posted?

Seems good to you?

They're really earning that money, huh?

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Flap Doodle 3 years, 7 months ago

Here what the real class warriors accomplished: "...We cannot allow the atrocities of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, and Castro to fade into the background of history. We must not forget the trail of blood and tears this utopian deception has left behind: * When the Bolsheviks murdered their way into power... * When Lenin destroyed hundreds of thousands of Cossacks... * When the Kremlin starved more than six million in Ukraine... * When Mao murdered tens of millions of Chinese peasants during his "Great Leap Forward"... * When Ho Chi Minh sent 850,000 Vietnamese to their graves in "education camps"... * When Castro buried dissenters in the infamous Isle of Pines... * When the student voices of freedom were silenced at Tiananmen Square..."

http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/history_communism.php

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

Take off your rose colored glasses, Snap. You're starting to sound like Joe McCarthy. Next you'll be wanting to do a house to house search looking for Commies under the beds. How do you even know how yo use a computer since you just crawled out of that fallout shelter you spent the last 50 years in? (By the way, does anybody know if there's a "Commie" equivalent of a Godwin?)

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

Yes, please do take off those rose colored glasses... and put on blinders so the utter millions slaughtered in the name of socialism will remain non-existent.

Oh, and next time, don't forget jim jones. Granted he didn't kill the shear numbers of people for socialism that stalin or pot did, but he did kill something like 99% of his socialist nirvana rather than let them have their freedom.

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Cait McKnelly 3 years, 7 months ago

Hmm, looks like this is the closest I can find. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associat... But hey! Thanks for keeping the post bumped, Snap!

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Flap Doodle 3 years, 7 months ago

If you're going to be bleating about class warfare, you shouldn't ignore the prime examples of that whole mindset, cait. Of course, the 20th Century was sooooooo long ago.

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Liberty275 3 years, 7 months ago

Class warfare:

"The midnight honking of cars circling the white building had ceased. The chalk outlines around fake dead bodies etched with Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's name remained in dismembered parts, not yet completely washed away by hoses."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058601,00.html

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