Should Kansas Get On the Four Day Work and School Week Bus?

liggyon (David Lignell) says…

I like it. Aside from savings all the way around, it would put the focus on efficiency and effectiveness, which should be part of knowledge acquisition and not just the domain of business. Usually, if one has less time to achieve the same goals, it results in better time spent and a bigger payoff. That's not always the case in education, is it? I know we can do it in four days, especially if teachers communicate about their homework loads to each other and allocate it properly it instead of burying our kids with excess assignments in overloaded backpacks. Scoliosis anyone?

August 18, 2008 at 7:30 p.m.

kansas778 (anonymous) says…

I don't know about schools, but putting the government on a four day work week would give them less time in which to think of new ways to spend our money.

August 18, 2008 at 7:48 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Well stated reasons to go ahead and give it a try, David! I don't understand why Kansas is often the last to hop on a good idea. I think in particular for states such as Kansas that have such weather extremes that we are looking at bigger savings than states with more moderate winters. And why are we still starting school in August? I know this has been an unusually cool summer, but some of them have been so hot that they have released children early so they aren't walking home in one hundred plus temperatures. Start after Labor Day and end the middle of June.I know a four day school week would please the majority of students and it might get more businesses thinking about the same benefits for themselves. Isn't this much what KU is doing with their classes - for the most part Monday through Thursday?I for one think the early release time on Weds. is a total waste of time, energy and efficency. If we must have such a day for teachers then have it either on Monday morning and let students sleep in, or have it Friday afternoon and let the weekend begin! :) That's the slogan: Either sleep in or let the weekend begin!What are some of the negatives? Any teachers care to share how much time would need to be added onto a school day to achieve the same results?

August 18, 2008 at 7:49 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

kansas, good one! :)

August 18, 2008 at 7:49 p.m.

peachesncream (anonymous) says…

i happen to fall under two of the school employees listed. and i still think a 4 day school week would be wonderful, but you do realize that it would not be a friday off of school , it would have to be in the middle of the week when there are no sports being played. great money saving idea tho.

August 18, 2008 at 8:33 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Why can't sports be switched to a Friday or a Monday? A lot of games are Friday nights and Sat. mornngs. I am curious which two of the employees you are, peaches.I think more money would be saved if the three days are consecutive, especially if we are talking about gas and electricity.

August 18, 2008 at 9:08 p.m.

liggyon (David Lignell) says…

I think the consecutive days would, indeed, save more money, but the idea of having a faux "Wednesday" off sounds good, too. In other words, we have two, two-day work weeks, along with a weekend and a mid-week break. Okay, I confused myself on that. Hmmm.

August 18, 2008 at 9:38 p.m.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous (anonymous) says…

Hmm... four days on, three days off... just a slight reorientation, and...three days on, four days off... leisure society achieved!( decadent, but delightful )

August 18, 2008 at 10:06 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

David, the idea of having Weds. off isn't horrible to me, but it wouldn't help much with an extended weekend vacation. Well, maybe we would just have to go with Weds. through Sunday for the vacation, or maybe Sat. through Weds.tange, it is time we Americans became as decadent our our European counterparts. They have been leading the world in delightful decadence for a long, long time now!

August 18, 2008 at 10:20 p.m.

happypill4014 (anonymous) says…

I am not for a 4-day school week. When I was in elementary school in Colorado we had a four day week. I got on the school bus at 5:45 in the morning and got home at 6:00 at night. It was draining and my sister and I never had any time to play. When we got home, we had to do our chores and homework. We ate dinner and went to bed. That was it. It was not fun. Don't forget that the kids will be at school for almost 10 hours. It is a long time to ask them to pay attention and work. I think that it is important to remember that they are kids and not mini-adults.Certain schedules just do not work for them.

August 18, 2008 at 10:22 p.m.

xyz (anonymous) says…

What does the data show for school districts who have switched to a 4 day week? Are students still receiving a decent education? How much money has been saved? Did those savings translate into a lower mill levy for those districts?

August 18, 2008 at 11:46 p.m.

punkrockmom (Nikki May) says…

The problem is, you won't save on daycare, because you are still taking up a full time slot. Not many people use a one day slot. Then there is the fact that not all businesses would be able to do this, so chances are, you still have daycare on their day off from school.Anyway, I work four 10 hour days. I like the long weekend. Our work has a different day off for each person. I'm monday, The lady that has Wednesday likes it because she has the two day work week. The one who has Thursday likes it because she only has to come back for one day then it's the weekend.Anyway, the way our schools are right now, they do a certain number of hours per school year. So, I'm guessing you'd have to extend the hours some way.

August 19, 2008 at 6:40 a.m.

lori (anonymous) says…

On one hand, I like the four day week idea. I like the thought of having a day during the week where we could schedule appointments and not have to pull them out of school. I like the idea of saving money AND having an extra day at home with the kids. We'd really only need to add, what, a little over 1 1/2 hours to the school day to accomplish this. Right now kids go 7 hours (with approx an hour built in for lunch and recesses). So going to a four day week would mean they would go maybe 8 1/2 hours, or if you wanted to add an extra recess, 8 3/4 hours. Instead of 8: 45 to 3: 45, my fifth grader would go, say, 8:00 to 4:45. We aren't a rural district nor are we a gigantic city, kids aren't being bussed from a significant ways away, extending their day to an unacceptable length (it sounds like happy pill was bussed for about an hour each way, if he/she was in school for 10 hours). And a lot of kids go to before and after school programs, so they are actually already away from home in many cases longer than this. Would they notice that their academic day was longer?On the other hand, what does the school day look like for kids who don't *just* go to school? Who partake in sports and other extracurricular activities? Is homework less on the days that are consecutive, and then more on the days when there is a break? Do teachers feel it is effective?I would be open to the idea, but like xyz I would like to see some data on it, regarding the savings, the academic results and how students felt it affected their lives.

August 19, 2008 at 6:48 a.m.

mmiller (anonymous) says…

As a state of Kansas employee, I am against working four days a week. One of my former co-workers works for the state of Utah where they implemented a 4-day work week. She says it is awful. Productivity has diminshed greatly, and people are much more irritable and fatigued. This could conceivably lead to employees utilizing more sick leave and vacation time, right?? It's just not worth it in the long run. It make sense. You rush home to fix supper (around 7)...by the time you finish supper it's time to bed - then you're going to bed on a full stomach. No time for exercise. Plus, who would have the energy to exercise after working 10 hours?! Not me! I prefer working a 5-day, 40-hour work week. This, in my opinion, is much more efficient than working a 4-day work week.

August 19, 2008 at 8:23 a.m.

lori (anonymous) says…

I guess my perspective is skewed, as I work a 12 hour (actually usually 13-14) hour day. I only work 3 days for a full time position, and for me having the four days off each week is worth it. I don't know how people work almost every day. I'll never be able to leave my job, as I don't think I will ever be able to work a 5 day work week ever again.

August 19, 2008 at 8:41 a.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

So many good points all around. mmiller, I think it would have a lot to do with if the working person (school child) had a long commute and that extends the work/school day to an even longer, more stressful one. I believe, as David L. is suggesting, that neither needs to be a great deal longer in order to be as effective in work and in school. I have read studies that suggest that 90 percent of what is learned in school is rote memorization and forgotten not long out of school. Decrease the unimportant and have them in school an hour longer at max. As far as work schedules go, Ithere are a lot of people who already work ten hour days and do fine by it - I notice that the majority of posts are made on this site between four and five thirty - people are burnt out from their day and killing time. If they had the "incentive" (I just love that word) to get their work done in four days, it just might work.punkrockmom:As far as childcare provider's go, I think a lot of them would be thrilled to work four day weeks too! For those people who have to work five days, there would still be those daycares available for them. People seem to be able to work around about any problem.happypill, I agree that the school day in Colorado is much too long, but here in Lawrence with our early dismissal on Weds. we are already having a shorter week without any seeming learning problems for the students. Add an extra hour a day on to the other four days of school and give them an entire day off instead of the half one they now have.xyz and lori, I am not sure how it is working for those people experiencing it. I believe there have been several articles about it recently in well known mags. that are saying it is working quite well - at least in terms of saving money for the state.

August 19, 2008 at 8:45 a.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Time Magazine: Four Day School Weeks Aug., 2008"...nearly 1 in 7 school boards nationwide is considering whether to drop a day, according to a recent survey by the American Association of School Administrators. Of 546 superintendents surveyed, nearly half said they plan to cut back on field trips, and 15% will eliminate extra curricular activities that require busing. Nearly a third reported having to lay off teachers, while others have closed down schools entirely. "A four-day schedule can often be the least painful option a district has," says Marty Strange, policy director for Rural School and Community Trust, a nonprofit in Arlington, Va. "It's really a small bandage on a deep cut."In Caldwell Parish, where school buses travel more than 1,000 miles (1,600 km) a day ferrying the district's 1,800 students, the Mondays-off policy is expected to save $135,000 this year, or about 5% of the annual operating costs. "We found our budget could only stretch so far," says superintendent John Sartin. "This was the best alternative under the circumstances."With the new calendar, the number of hours Caldwell Parish pupils spend in class won't change. Instead, each of the four days of instruction will be lengthened an hour, and recesses and other breaks will be shortened. At the district's junior highs, for example, the school day will commence at 7:50 a.m. and end at 4:09 p.m.So far there have been no formal studies on the effects that a condensed schedule has on student performance. Anecdotally, however, the experiment appears to be paying off for some districts, both financially and academically. Five years ago, Kentucky's Webster County school district faced drastic budget shortfalls caused by waning revenue from local property taxes. But after debating whether to close one of the district's seven schools, officials decided instead to institute a Tuesday-to-Friday schedule, which to date has saved more than $300,000 on transportation, utility and insurance costs.Student absenteeism has also fallen remarkably in Webster County. Ditto for teachers, which means fewer resources are being used to pay substitute teachers. Administrators also credit the schedule change for significant academic gains. The 2,000-student district went from being ranked 111th in the state on standardized tests in 2003 to 53rd last year. Says Riley Ramsey, district director of personnel and technology: "We took our budget savings and plowed it right back into instructional content," such as hiring one-on-one tutors and extending kinder garten hours."The last paragraph from the above article is something I had not considered - putting the saved money right back into the "instructional content" with tutors and all day kindergarten - if that is what our community wants.

August 19, 2008 at 8:55 a.m.

stinerides (anonymous) says…

Love it!! let's start today!

August 19, 2008 at 9:13 a.m.

Satirical (anonymous) says…

I think it is a good idea, but it wouldn't work for all school ages. Younger children would have difficulty being at school for 9 hours.

August 19, 2008 at 9:28 a.m.

acg (anonymous) says…

ramsfield, other than b3, you have to be one of the most horrid people I've ever come across on these boards. If you're going to be a sour pr*ck about everything, just go away. No one wants to hear it from you anymore.

August 19, 2008 at 9:57 a.m.

mmiller (anonymous) says…

As a state of Kansas employee, I am against working four days a week. One of my former co-workers works for the state of Utah where they implemented a 4-day work week. She says it is awful. Productivity has diminshed greatly, and people are much more irritable and fatigued. This could conceivably lead to employees utilizing more sick leave and vacation time, right?? It's just not worth it in the long run. You rush home to fix supper (around 7)...by the time you finish supper it's time to bed - then you're going to bed on a full stomach. No time for exercise. Plus, who would have the energy to exercise after working 10 hours?! Not me! I prefer working a 5-day, 40-hour work week. This, in my opinion, is much more efficient than cramming 40 hours into 4 days!! It's just too much.

August 19, 2008 at 10:02 a.m.

Boeing (anonymous) says…

My employer is flexible enough to allow me to do a 4 day work week. I do Monday-Thursday, 6am-5pm (with an hour for lunch), and I love it.

August 19, 2008 at 10:17 a.m.

verity (anonymous) says…

Personally I could go for a 4-day workweek---I've worked many 9-10 hour days, 5 days a week.But "Payment for cooks, janitors, paras, bus drivers, and crossing guards would go down." People in these positions probably aren't making much money anyway. They may not be able to make the cut.

August 19, 2008 at 10:21 a.m.

verity (anonymous) says…

Oops, I meant "They might not be able to take the cut (in pay)."

August 19, 2008 at 10:22 a.m.

alm77 (anonymous) says…

I'm okay with it, except this "Payment for cooks, janitors, paras, bus drivers, and crossing guards would go down." I'm always against cutting costs by paying workers less.

August 19, 2008 at 10:44 a.m.

d_prowess (anonymous) says…

Janitors and Paras probably wouldn't fit in the category of a cost savings since they would probably transition to ten hour days as well. But those other folks would probably lose money in the deal! Which you wonder how that would work out for them...

August 19, 2008 at 10:50 a.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

I agree that we don't want to cut pay for those earning minimum/hourly wages (well, for anyone for that matter), but hopefully they would have as many hours as they did before - cooks and some aides and crossing guards may be working part time hours as is.verity, understood what you meant.mmiller, you feel strongly enough to post the same thing twice! :)It seems for the most part people who do work four day work weeks love it. Come on, let's hear from more of you on that topic! And if you think children can handle an extra weekend day.

August 19, 2008 at 11:09 a.m.

birdsandflowers (anonymous) says…

I have long been a supporter of a 4 day work week. I also think more businesses should offer the opportunity for commuters to work 1 or 2 days at home. With all of today's technology it can be done very effectively. I do understand that there are some individuals that lack the necessary discipline to work at home, but managers/supervisors know the work ethics, devotion, etc. of their team members and can approve accordingly. Whenever I've worked at home, I get two to three times the amount of work done because I don't have all the distractions from the office environment.

August 19, 2008 at 11:12 a.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

You make some great points, birdsandflowers. While it may not be for everyone, for those people who do their work without direct need of supervision probably do it far more efficiently. Makes you want to work quickly to have the rest of your day freed up, and how nice it is (and much cheaper) to be able to start your evening meal while you work.

August 19, 2008 at 11:50 a.m.

Made_in_China (Paul R. Getto) says…

What does the data show for school districts who have switched to a 4 day week? Are students still receiving a decent education? How much money has been saved? Did those savings translate into a lower mill levy for those districts?=======The evidence is anecdotal and sketchy. Generally, it will not save, for example, 20% of the operations expense. For younger students in particular, it is educationally unsound and lots of time is probably wasted (not that is isn't now in some schools.) The chance of it lowering the tax levy is slim.

August 19, 2008 at 1:15 p.m.

2muchthyme (anonymous) says…

Has anyone given any thought to going to a year round school? 3 months in, one month off? Or to make a 4 day school week work effectively, why not start in August as they do now, but extend the school year by a week or 2 in order to cover the extra hours? That way the days are not too long for the younger kids.

August 19, 2008 at 2:32 p.m.

Made_in_China (Paul R. Getto) says…

"Has anyone given any thought to going to a year round school?" ========Best idea going, once we leave the 19th century. School days should be longer and school should meet most days of the year. Not all the time would be spent in instruction, but there are many ways to learn. Paying for it is, of course, a problem.

August 19, 2008 at 2:53 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

madmike, the parents will do the same thing they do now when their children are out early on Weds. afternoon, and early dismissal on other days for high school students. If they are young, they will go to childcare, or a friend's house, and if they are older they may have a chance to do their other sports, etc. activity, or work more hours themselves.2much, I think your idea of extending the days of school an extra week or two so the actual school day isn't much longer is a good one. Paul, I agree we need more information, but what I am reading is that it is saving money that can then be used for programs we can not afford otherwise. As our food, fuel and heating costs continue to rise, every little bit helps. Then there is also the fact that a heck of a lot of students and parents, who work a four day week, would like it better.Where are people from Europe who have experienced this four day work week, longer vacation experience? Tell us how it works for you!

August 19, 2008 at 3:58 p.m.

denak (anonymous) says…

The only way I would agree to a four day school week is if school was extended to year round. That way the school hours would stay reasonable, the kids could still play sports, and there would be enough time to learn everything they need.Contrary to what some believe, teachers have a hard time already trying to fit everything in a school day and if they have to try to cram even more in in 4 days, that is just going to be too much for the teachers and the students. Personally, a four day work week might sound good but for some professions that isn't going to happen. Those who work in the legal profession aren't going to get a four day week. Crime doesn't take a three day weekend so neither are the lawyers, paralegals, legal secretaries, police, prison gaurds etc. There are some professions were that just isn't possible.So, for me, a four day weekend would be more of a burden than a way to relieve stress.And quite frankly, even though I like my job, I do *not* want to be at it for 10 hrs a day. There are days when it is hard enough to do even 8.I understand that people want to save money but there is a quality of life issue here and I don't believe that a 4 day week would improve my quality of life or my child's.Dena

August 19, 2008 at 5:07 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Dena says,: So, for me, a four day weekend would be more of a burden than a way to relieve stress." We are just talking a three day weekend, Dena. I understand that a ten hour day is more stressful for some than an eight hour day, ;but the payoff of having the extra day - and no commute time, is sounding nice to a lot of folks.The four day school week seems to be working well for those schools/states that are utilizing it at present - perhaps more time is needed.I do know there are some schools in Kansas that have already gone to four day school weeks. Anyone care to name them? :)

August 19, 2008 at 6:06 p.m.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous (anonymous) says…

I say we institute a seven-day work week.( ... and make weeks 365 days long.... )

August 19, 2008 at 6:55 p.m.

BABBOY (anonymous) says…

No wonder Japan, Europe, and China are blowing right by us. Education is something that the Courts have to force the legislature to fund and now morons want to cut time spent in the class room and to save costs. I think school should be 9 to 5 and five days a week all year long. There should not be any homework because it should be done at school with a teacher helping the student. Also, teacher salaries should be increased dramatically, but only if they have masters degrees and work a full year and work week. Oh I realize that will never happen. Too many teachers will not give up the option of having the summer off or being off work by 4:00 and the taxpayers would never go for it. They can't see the relationship of good education and other countries kicking our butts in technology, but to them saving a buck is more important then having a school system that works. Also, I find it offensive that people actually support slashing the hard earned salary of bus drivers, custodians, or other American workers who work the commuting jobs that would be affected by this stupid idea. I do not see driving more workers into poverty as a saving to society (pardon the pun).In short, I would do what I could to defeat such a plan if were actually put on some ballet.

August 19, 2008 at 7:12 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Babboy, you sound fairly strong in your opinion on this one, and I think most people feel very strongly about their child(ren)'s education. I don't think anyone wants to see someone lose money in this endeavor - the idea is to save money and put it to better use still within our school system, or in the pocket of the parent by having them be able to earn the same amount of money but be at home so they save time, money for gasoline, etc,I don't know that European countries are falling behind Japan and China - it isn't the amount of time spent at school, it is the time that is spent learning. Perhaps if the "No Child Left Behind" act gets booted we'll have some money left over in our system to use on gifted children too.tange, you are really no fun at all! :) Go for a run into the moon - a different, nice way of saying take a hike? Nay, :)So where is warmer, where is multi, where is gnome, and aisling and susie, and Supa. Where is Boston, where are my people who know Kansas facts with their answers abouthow this is working in rural Kansas?

August 19, 2008 at 7:39 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

I found this on the internet about the Colorado school system. By the way, schools have been doing this for around twenty years now - we should have some pretty good stats by now!More than a quarter of Colorado's 178 school districts - but less than 2% of students - have a four-day schedule. Classes run for 7.5 hours a day for 144 days rather than the traditional six hours a day for 180 days. "The 52 districts on a four-day week are almost all relatively small districts in rural parts of the state," says Gary Sibigtroth, Colorado's assistant commissioner of education. Finances, scheduling issues and the rigors of transporting students long distances are key factors, he says that transportation and food-service cossts can be cut as much as 20 percent."

August 19, 2008 at 7:54 p.m.

verity (anonymous) says…

I'm not sure that more hours in school necessarily equals better education.I went to grade school only eight months a year, 9-4, and loved having four months to do whatever. Spent two years in one-room schools and six years in a two-room school. Was afraid I wouldn't be able to keep up when I went to high school and college, but was always an honor student. Of course, my mother didn't have a job outside of our home, so having that time off wasn't a problem. (Well, she probably got sick of us, but that's another story.)I know that was a whole different world and time, but I still think children should have time to be children. Just a thought---what do others think?

August 19, 2008 at 8:22 p.m.

Godot (anonymous) says…

Public schools should go to a four day school week, 8 to 3:30. Let the teachers have that extra day to coordinate, comingle, cohabit, coplan, go shopping, whatever it is they do.

August 19, 2008 at 8:49 p.m.

Godot (anonymous) says…

Addressing the "exhaustion" problem, the four days do not have to be Monday through Tuesday. Shut down government on Sunday, Tuesday and Friday.

August 19, 2008 at 8:53 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

verity, I went to a one room school house from grades two through sixth as I recall. We had eight grades in that one room school house. The older children spent part of their day teaching the younger students. Some of our grades had no students and some had as many as three or four. I loved it! I too worried about what skills I might be lacking once I went to college, but found "country" schools to be similar to homeschooling in that we learned to be self starters and responsible in ways that aren't always taught today.Godot, you make some good points - our teachers already have a half day now - let them have the full day or let them have a day off as need be. I am sure a lot of teachers would enjoy doing their planning at home too.I agree that our children would be better served to have more down time. Not television time, but time to watch the clouds, read a good book, write their own book, actually remember what "play" is like. Children learn a lot through experiencing things that aren't always controlled by adults. Live and learn; they are always learning.

August 19, 2008 at 9:18 p.m.

JerryStubbs (anonymous) says…

Longer days are kind of grueling, yet worthwhile. If you can alternate your schedule periodically, it can make the longer days much more tolerable. How about 4 10 in the warmer part of the year, when days are longer, then shift to shorter days when the daylight gets shorter.Or shift changes could be designed to be kind of complementary to holiday schedules. Or just have long days one or two weeks per month. There are even alternatives to 4 - 10hr days, or 5 - 8 hr days.How about 4 - 8 hr days, or 9 hrs ? They don't add up to 40, I guess the government kind of ties us to that number with the wage laws, etc. , so there would have to be some adjustment there to allow for more flexibility.

August 19, 2008 at 9:35 p.m.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous (anonymous) says…

Ronda: tange, you are really no fun at all! :) Go for a run into the moon - a different, nice way of saying take a hike? Nay, :)Well, I took your advice, and I went for a run, sans moon, because it rises none-too-soon, these days. Still, I had your fond words ( above ) to propel me... and I stepped on every ( other ) crack, as I pondered and pounded my path...>:-)

August 19, 2008 at 9:56 p.m.

xyz (anonymous) says…

I went to a presentation today by Tom Bloch, former CEO of H&R Bloch who founded and is teaching math at University Academy, an inner city charter school in KCMO. I posed the question to him and his response was that kids need more time in school. And another thing to contemplate. For kids that qualify for free lunches, what's the impact of getting only 4 days of what may be their only decent meals?

August 19, 2008 at 10:11 p.m.

acoupstick (anonymous) says…

As a science teacher, I can say 4 day weeks could definitely work well especially if periods were lengthened. My school currently uses a block system on alternating days and 90 minute class periods are perfect for science. It may not work as well in other subjects, however. When it comes down to it, more time off = more time hunting, and I'm ok with that.

August 19, 2008 at 10:26 p.m.

denak (anonymous) says…

Dena says,: So, for me, a four day weekend would be more of a burden than a way to relieve stress."We are just talking a three day weekend, Dena...."Sorry typo. I meant three day weekend,....But thanks for correcting me.==============================================xyz brings up a good point. What about the impact of a four day school week on lower income kids. Or even middle class. I think it is safe to say that not all jobs are going to go to a four day work week so what you have are kids that are being left home by themselves. Day care is already out of reach for a lot of parents, and in the summer, these kids are either home alone or they hang out at the pool all day. That is their daycare. Add in the fact, that for some children, they get two out of their three meals from school. Unless the community picks up the slack by having free lunch at a community center, I think it is safe to say that these children will not eat healthy during that lovely three day weekend some people want.Lastly, for those who advocate shutting down the government, that is nice but unrealistic. You certainly can't shut down the courts. There are constitutional issues that come into play that won't allow it. Can you imagine if you were being tried and the second day of your trial is "cancelled" (for lack of a better word) because it is the "weekend." Or juror number 3 wants his weekend on Tuesday, and juror number 7 wants her's on Thursday. A three day weekend just seems a lot of hassle. There needs to be some uniformity for a society to function well and our society, for the most part, functions well with a five day work week. And as for school, I've already stated that I would like to see more school, not less so a four day school week is something I would loudly object to.Dena

August 19, 2008 at 10:39 p.m.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous (anonymous) says…

Dena; "Can you imagine if you were being tried and the second day of your trial is "cancelled" (for lack of a better word) because it is the "weekend." Or juror number 3 wants his weekend on Tuesday, and juror number 7 wants her's on Thursday."Yeah... I tend to organize my week around litigation....

August 19, 2008 at 10:51 p.m.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous (anonymous) says…

,;-D

August 19, 2008 at 10:52 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

tang, glad that you kept my endearing thoughts in your head to help you watch those sidewalk cracks. I know it takes a lot of coordination to avoid them - well, at least it always has for me just walking! :)Jerry, I agree there are so many ways to work something like this - get creative and there is always a different (or several) way(s).xyz, I believe a lot of children who qualify for free lunch are also getting other benefits such as childcare paid for, food stamps for parents, etc. I don't know that because they qualify for reduced lunches that they are not eating well at home. We need to be careful about assumptions such as this. One can eat a VERY well balanced meal for not a lot of money. Beans/lentils are very affordable.thanks for your imput, acoup, I hope we hear from more teachers about their thoughts. Dena, older children would be able to work, younger ones who needed to could go to childcare or boys and girls clubs as they do in the summer. Where there is a will, there is always a way.In tange's case - far, far away. Running into the horizon.

August 20, 2008 at 8:40 a.m.

xyz (anonymous) says…

Rhonda--while I can't quantify how many kids have to rely on school food for their only decent meals, I have heard stories from various school officials in several states that this does happen, so I am not making assumptions.If you are a 2nd grader and your family does qualify for food stamps, they don't do you any good if there isn't someone to cook those affordable beans/lentils for you.My point is, there will be many impacts to changing to a 4 day school week that have got to be considered. Saving money may not be a good enough reason to change.

August 20, 2008 at 2:25 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

xyz, what you say is true enough - but usually children who are the age that they couldn't cook for themselves would be (should be) with an adult caregiver. What are these same children doing at 3:30 when school is out, do they go to childcare, after school programs, a friend's or neighbor's house, are they home alone. I agree that there would be a lot of things that would need to be worked out in order for this to take place and be done well, not just to save money.Your comments are valid ones to give a lot of thought to.

August 20, 2008 at 3:46 p.m.

Bodan (Sandra Willis) says…

In Spain, all children are taught from Kindergarten through 8th grade. After that are given tests to see whether or not they will go to high school, or where else they will fit.I met a couple barristas who had found exactly what they wanted to do; call it their calling, through these testings. They really like university students; because they are not treated badly in their jobs. Unlike In this country, where barristas are looked down on; or are students from the university, just trying to make a buck.

August 20, 2008 at 5:59 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Sandra, what an interesting comment! Thank you. Some countries put so much emphasis on education that it is too much pressure on those who think they must have it in order to succeed. I have known people over the years who are disappointed if their child doesn't want to attend a prestigious college. We often forget that it is the individual's happiness and/or enjoyment of each day that is the most important. Parent's mean well, but it is easy to fall into the catagory of pushing our children over the edge. I see nothing wrong with someone who takes a different road other than higher education, and higher education can mean something different for each person. We need people who enjoy their job and take pride in it regardless of what job it is they do. Nothing wrong with barristas! :)

August 20, 2008 at 7:35 p.m.

tangential_reasoners_anonymous (anonymous) says…

I'm such a poor forum citizen, running roughshod through discussions with my playground mentality, that I often discover a Reader BLOG to be *yours* only AFTER I've repeatedly tripped over successive "Ronda" posts. ( Quite the consummate hostess in your literary endeavors. )Anyway, thanks for all the springboards.( I'll strive to keep my horizon vertical. )

August 20, 2008 at 9:51 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Thanks, tange (I think).Yes, you are indeed springing about in high fashion. No nose dives or spiraling out of control on my posts, please.Hopefully you'll keep tripping over my posts without getting hurt! :) Slow down and sit to play awhile instead of running amuck so......

August 21, 2008 at 8:33 a.m.

camper (anonymous) says…

I think a 4 day work week would be great. But instead of 4-10 hr days, maybe the traditional 5th day could be used to encourage work at home for one day a week. This could help facilitate even more computer networking....which seem to be skills well worth having these days.Good post RM.

August 21, 2008 at 7:47 p.m.

MrMister (anonymous) says…

All well and good, But we all are forgetting on very important thing. The current state of the district's budget would suck up any savings like a black hole and they would still be asking for an increase in taxes. In other words, no benefit at all in good ol' Lawrence. Unless it would save enough that we wouldn't get nickeled and dimed at every turn with fees, I say no way. Not only do I have to provide Kleenex to the schools, but it seems as though I have to pay a fee for my son to use them.

August 21, 2008 at 8:09 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

camper, good suggestion. As much learning as children/teens do on computers, it would be very helpful to incorporate one of those days at home doing computer work - writing, etc. I think that is probably the best idea I've heard. My children homeschooled for a few years and the last year they did we used a virtual program. The school provided them with a little Apple computer and they whizzed right through their work and loved it!MrMister, I think we are all feeling over taxed at present. What are the words from Harrison's song, "Tax man"? "They'll tax the pennies on your eyes...." True it is!

August 21, 2008 at 8:47 p.m.

Irish (Leslie Swearingen) says…

Ronda, I think you should copy the blog and put it back on with a slightly different title and thus leave out the comments from August.
The blog is as pertinent today as it was when writen.
Stress does more harm than anything else. It causes spousal and child abuse. People who are angry at their bosses and feel humiliated and bullied at work find a way to let it out.
The four day work and school week might alleviate some of this as a high percentage of school children report that they are bullied and hate school. A high percentage of employees say they would like to shoot their boss. Literally.
There is just so much anger and fear out there right now. The Secretary of Health, Kathleen Sibelius has said that people are right at the breaking point.
We can't wait any longer to make changes.

March 7, 2010 at 11:58 a.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Eleven other states are making this work. Has our school board discussed this?

Irish, the reason I reposted this blog, was to emphasize how long our state has been talking and not acting. Why wait for a crisis mode to consider and act on obvious methods that work.

March 7, 2010 at 12:40 p.m.

Valkyrie_of_Reason (Kathy Getto) says…

"Why wait for a crisis mode to consider and act on obvious methods that work."

I believe the reason this crisis has been manufactured for many years by our legislature is their extremely powerful drive to destory our public schools. They have done an excellent job to date wouldn't you say?

March 7, 2010 at 12:55 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

One has to wonder! It seems it couldn't have been done better if they'd tried.

It'd be nice to see proactivity for a switch. Our university should consider the same. Discussion of furlough, what the difference.

March 7, 2010 at 1:14 p.m.

RoeDapple (anonymous) says…

For most of the '70's and '80's I worked for a company four days per week (which included Saturday) but did not get two consecutive days off. Late in the '80's they put me on a three day week (M-W-F), that made for long work days, but the trade off was holidays, personal days and sick days could be manipulated to gain 4 to 6 day "vacations". This schedule also came at a time when our children were growing up so I was able to spend a lot of time being an influence (good or bad) on their formative years.

I give the shortened work week two thumbs up anywhere it can be applied.

March 7, 2010 at 1:49 p.m.

mynameismudd (anonymous) says…

In the 12 school districts that have adopted the 4 day week in Kansas most have around 100 or less students in the WHOLE district. The teachers are still paid the same but the classified employees lose hours and benefits usually a 15 to 20% cut in pay. The babysitters of teachers go to 4 day weeks. Parents who work aren't around to supervise children that don't require childcare. Kansas tax revenues would be further exasperated by the cut in pay for numerous employees across the state. Do you really think this is a good idea? We need people working. Legislators need to tighten their own belts, cut their own pay and learn what it is like to live like the rest of Kansans do instead of being entitled like they are.

March 7, 2010 at 3:14 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

myname, check out some of the info from the other eleven (it may be more since I first did this blog a year ago) states who have adopted the four day school week. They are saving a bunch of money and not necessarily at the expense you're talking about.

Parents aren't around now to supervise the children who don't require childcare - remember our early dismissal on Weds afternoon and the fact that schools get out earlier than most people get off work. Even something as basic as changing that early dismissal to a Friday at noon - or not starting school until Monday at noon - would be a great saving in a year from heating and cooling. Better yet if it is for the full day.

Have schools run from 7:30 to five and parents can drop their child off for breakfast at seven and pick them up once they get off work at 5:30. Teachers wouldn't be paid the same; perhaps they would take a cut in pay in order to keep other teachers from losing their job totally. Where there is a will, there is a way. It should be considered. We wouldn't be having less people working, but we would be saving a lot of money in transportation, heating, cooling, etc. Closing the schools for three day weekends would make a major difference.

Best possible outcome, as Roe mentioned, more time for parents with their children. There are many people who could work from their homes - this might be an added incentive for businesses to be nudged in that direction.

March 7, 2010 at 4:06 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Time Magazine: Four Day School Weeks Aug., 2008"...nearly 1 in 7 school boards nationwide is considering whether to drop a day, according to a recent survey by the American Association of School Administrators. Of 546 superintendents surveyed, nearly half said they plan to cut back on field trips, and 15% will eliminate extra curricular activities that require busing. Nearly a third reported having to lay off teachers, while others have closed down schools entirely. "A four-day schedule can often be the least painful option a district has," says Marty Strange, policy director for Rural School and Community Trust, a nonprofit in Arlington, Va. "It's really a small bandage on a deep cut."In Caldwell Parish, where school buses travel more than 1,000 miles (1,600 km) a day ferrying the district's 1,800 students, the Mondays-off policy is expected to save $135,000 this year, or about 5% of the annual operating costs. "We found our budget could only stretch so far," says superintendent John Sartin. "This was the best alternative under the circumstances."With the new calendar, the number of hours Caldwell Parish pupils spend in class won't change. Instead, each of the four days of instruction will be lengthened an hour, and recesses and other breaks will be shortened. At the district's junior highs, for example, the school day will commence at 7:50 a.m. and end at 4:09 p.m.So far there have been no formal studies on the effects that a condensed schedule has on student performance. Anecdotally, however, the experiment appears to be paying off for some districts, both financially and academically. Five years ago, Kentucky's Webster County school district faced drastic budget shortfalls caused by waning revenue from local property taxes. But after debating whether to close one of the district's seven schools, officials decided instead to institute a Tuesday-to-Friday schedule, which to date has saved more than $300,000 on transportation, utility and insurance costs.Student absenteeism has also fallen remarkably in Webster County. Ditto for teachers, which means fewer resources are being used to pay substitute teachers. Administrators also credit the schedule change for significant academic gains. The 2,000-student district went from being ranked 111th in the state on standardized tests in 2003 to 53rd last year. Says Riley Ramsey, district director of personnel and technology: "We took our budget savings and plowed it right back into instructional content," such as hiring one-on-one tutors and extending kinder garten hours."The last paragraph from the above article is something I had not considered - putting the saved money right back into the "instructional content" with tutors and all day kindergarten - if that is what our community wants.

March 7, 2010 at 4:21 p.m.

Irish (Leslie Swearingen) says…

Ronda, I am so sorry that I wrote so badly. I am glad that you re posted the blog. I meant if you could do it in such a way that it didn't have the old comments.
I agree with you.

March 7, 2010 at 9:46 p.m.

ksfbcoach (anonymous) says…

Will everyone who really has no clue about education, just a progressive opinion, please keep it to themselves. Quit comparing us to Europe and Asia. there is no comparision! We are the only nation in the world who tries to educate EVERY student. In Europe, all kids go to school thru the 8th grade. They then take a test to see if they have the "aptitude" to attend university. Those that don't are directed into trade schools or the job market. When they test students, they ONLY test the ones going to college. Thus they always have higher test scores than the US because we test everyone! Special Education students, ESL, etc. A 4-day school week, year round schools, etc. will NOT change the test scores situation. Because we educate everyone, not just the chosen few, they will continue to test higher than us.

March 7, 2010 at 10:03 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Ks, thanks for setting the record straight. It seems to me the no child left behind act is in part responsible for our financial difficulies. What are your thoughts on that and a longer, four day schedule?

March 8, 2010 at 6:34 a.m.

ksfbcoach (anonymous) says…

My opinion of NCLB? There is an old saying..."The road to hell is paved with good intentions." I admire what they wanted to accomplish, but as a teacher for over 20 years it's impossible. As usual, people who either have never taught a day in their life, or haven't been in a classroom since the 50's make the laws. That applies to both Fed and state Dept's of Ed. in every state. The only way we catch up to Europe and China is start doing what they do. Concentrate on the higher level kids, throw the others away. That's what they do. They will always beat us in tests scores as they only test the "AP level kids. I repeat - we are the only nation in the world that tries to educate every kid.

Smaller class size is proven over and over again, as the best path to a good quality education. So what do we keep doing? Laying off teachers, closing schools, and increasing class size. I would also like to rant on the poorly trained teachers that come out of colleges these days but that is for another blog. Now we are talking about going to longer days so we can have a 4-day work week? In a district the size of Lawrence, scores would tank.

Think about this...when we went to school, the school year started after Labor Day, ended before Memorial Day. We went to school almost a month less than kids go now. Now we have longer days, longer school years and test scores are down, dropouts are up, discipline is nonexistent, respect is......well gone....

Sometimes less is more.

I could go on and on...but enough for now...no one that matters is listening anyway....

March 8, 2010 at 9:51 a.m.

Irish (Leslie Swearingen) says…

ksfbcoach Maybe you could look at a child and tell them they are not worth saving, but I could not.
These kids need someone to encourage them.
When it comes to the four day week, wouldn't working parents have to pay even more for day care than they do now for the extra hours?
You would have to put your child in care for a whole day instead of just after school.

March 8, 2010 at 10:53 a.m.

RoeDapple (anonymous) says…

ksfbcoach says,
"I could go on and on...but enough for now...no one that matters is listening anyway...."

As the spouse of a career teacher I have spent the last 40 years in an environment rich with teachers of all caliber. 90% of all teachers are dedicated, hard working, caring individuals who want to make a difference with every child they encounter, whether in their classroom or not. 10% are in it because they thought it would be easy, they would get a lot of time off or any of a number of reasons they found later to be false. In my own learning experience I encountered too many of the latter. My spouse, fortunately, is one of the 90%. ksfbcoach sounds like one of the all too frequent 10%. And everyone knows one crap worker can make 10 look bad.

March 8, 2010 at 11:34 a.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Irish, providers charge per day as a rule, not by the hour so it shouldn't affect rates. Most are already open ten to eleven hour days due to varying times parents go to work. There would be many who would enjoy a four day work schedule. If a parent has to work five days and school is only four days, I'm sure there would be providers willing to work one day only. You can find whatever you want. Supple/demand

KS, I'm with you in many respects. The amount of money spent by the state of Kansas for only one child with special needs a few years back was 250,000. We could send an entire six grade class to Europe for the summer for that price, not that we should, but think what they could/ would learn. Or how many extra teachers would it pay for, etc. We are busting our best student's education often times to make learning equal for all. It just isn't going to happen and it isn't right.

Irish, we're not saying each child isn't deserving, we're saying we need to be honest with expectations and stop this mass mentality of all sacrified for one of two.

Roe, the teachers I know, and several of my friends are teachers, truly dedicate their lives to their careers. What a difference a caring teacher makes in a life. I know several have in my own.

We seem to have a built in negativity to careers that don't require a college degree. Alot of the brightest people I know work a trade job, and they make a great living too!

March 8, 2010 at 11:56 a.m.

Irish (Leslie Swearingen) says…

Ronda, I totally agree with you about the trade jobs. I think it would be great if those in trades would take on high school students as apprentices and teach them what they know. The kids can learn on the job, and they would have good references.

March 8, 2010 at 12:37 p.m.

honeychild (Mel Briscoe) says…

i think the idea sucks.

March 8, 2010 at 12:41 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Really, Mel! Why? We may be in a different situation here in Douglas county. We're trying to save schools from being closed, teachers from being laid off, helping the budget. What's wrong with saving everyone money without any one person losing a job?

Irish, well said! There is a lot to be said for on the job training

March 8, 2010 at 1:01 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Really, Mel! Why? We may be in a different situation here in Douglas county. We're trying to save schools from being closed, teachers from being laid off, helping the budget. What's wrong with saving everyone money without any one person losing a job?

Irish, well said! There is a lot to be said for on the job training.

March 8, 2010 at 1:06 p.m.

ksfbcoach (anonymous) says…

Irish: As usual, no one really reads what is being said and just wants to throw their opinion around, including you. I was mocking the European and Asian style of education. Read what I said....

"The only way we catch up to Europe and China is start doing what they do. Concentrate on the higher level kids, throw the others away. That's what they do. They will always beat us in tests scores as they only test the "AP" level kids. I repeat - we are the only nation in the world that tries to educate every kid."

I never said we needed to do that. I repeat for the last time...."we are the only nation that tries to educate every child." That is what i like about our education system, and what separates us from Europe and Asia. Now get off your holier than thou high horse.

Rhonda: I am not advocating not teaching those kids because of the cost, but the cost IS crazy. But these kids need to go somewhere, and for many, a public school is the only place they've got.

Roe: Read what I wrote. I''m not lecturing the teachers...we are the ones in the trenches. They don't have to be told what I said, we live it every day. When I say no one is listening that matters I am referring to the administration at the building, district, state, and fed level that make the rules. Here's and example...I once had a building prinicpal that had 3 years teaching experience. 3 years. That is all she needed to be able to use her Masters Degree in Administration to come into my room and tell a teacher of over 15 years how to teach and who to teach how, etc. That extra piece of paper didn't make her a better teacher than me, but that is what the system says. And let me tell you, she had NO CLUE how to teach.

But as usual, this blog has gotten way off topic by people who want to nick-pick someone elses statements instead of just answering the question like I did. The question is about a 4-day work week or year long school. This teacher says no, it's nuts. You want to improve education, test scores, kids attitudes, etc? Go back to a shorter school year, not a longer one. 7 period day thus more breaks during the day, even if they are only 5 minutes. Watch what happens to test scores.

Perhaps I could have done a better job of making my points in my first post. Hopefully this clears it up....

March 8, 2010 at 1:15 p.m.

tomatogrower (anonymous) says…

2muchthyme (anonymous) says…
Has anyone given any thought to going to a year round school? 3 months in, one month off? Or to make a 4 day school week work effectively, why not start in August as they do now, but extend the school year by a week or 2 in order to cover the extra hours? That way the days are not too long for the younger kids.

Year round school takes more money. The money just isn't there.

March 8, 2010 at 1:19 p.m.

trinity (anonymous) says…

amen to ksfbcoach. best post in the entire blog.

March 8, 2010 at 1:28 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Ks needs to read. This blog is not about year round school. It is about four day school weeks during the same months we now hold school to attempt to keep costs down without closing schools or laying teachers off. We can't switch around to one month off here and there, at random, as that would really cause havoc to parents and wouldn't seem to cut spending.

I'm not saying all children don't belong at school, but I'd think we'd cap it at a much lower amount rather than bust the budget.

It is about allowing parents, employees who can work at home to do so. It's about saving our environment and economy.

What KS states about the big shot, I absolutely agree that more education doesn't mean better, smarter, more knowledgeable. Hands on experience is often, not always though, preferable.

March 8, 2010 at 4:15 p.m.

BikerGrandma (anonymous) says…

A 4 day week sounds great in theory, but you are really cutting the education that our students will receive. We have to meet the state mandated number of hours of student time. Yes, you can add 15-30 minutes to each day and make the mandated hours, but what are the students really learning in those few minutes. Think about your own work day - just how productive are you after sitting in your workplace for 8 hours. Students are the same way.

The comment about saving money due to not paying paras, drivers, cooks, etc. These the the lowest paid people in a school district and they cannot afford to take a cut in their pay. For many they need a 5 day week in order to get affordable health insurance. Cut their hours and many will not qualify for health insurance. Teachers and administrators are salaried and wouldn't be affected by cutting the days per week. They'll still make the same money, receive the same benefits, etc.

It's time to tell the legislature to do away with the tax abatements that have been in place for far too many years, raise the sales tax, raise the sin tax (liquor and tobacco), take a pay cut theirselves. Heck, there was an article in the Topeka paper today that stated that Friday is the lowest attendance day for legislators. Is the fiscal crisis of our state so low a priority for them that they can take a 3 day weekend?

March 8, 2010 at 8:34 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

I'd say the biggest means of money saved would be in transportation, utilities. The states that have adopted this system find it to be working very well. And, student scores have gone way up. As far as adults and job performance goes, studies find the majority of people do their work in relatively shortened hours, but again, those who work at home or work ten hour, four day weeks, actually gain in productivity.

I heard on last night's news that one in seven school boards are considering the four day week and Kansas has twenty such districts now using it. Data is incoming.

March 10, 2010 at 6:19 p.m.

jhwk_acct (anonymous) says…

I went to a small high school in Wyoming with a 4 day school week and our school has been the subject of many national tests regarding the 4 day vs. 5 day school week. On average out ACT scores were 4 points higher across the board. The model our district used works great and it allows a 3 day weekend where high school students can either get a job or participate in athletics.

March 11, 2010 at 2:01 p.m.

justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Jkwk, sorry so late in checking back. I'd hope school administrators are seriously viewing data such as that you've shared. I've read only positive reviews myself.

Sounds as though you personally had no regrets. Thanks for sharing!

March 17, 2010 at 5:55 p.m.

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