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Meet the Blind Month: Myth Busting

As do most people when put into a new or different scenario, and in particular one that I don't have much personal knowledge about, I felt awkward this past Saturday afternoon when I initially approached the informational table for "Meet the Blind Month", at the corner of 9th and Mass. St., in downtown Lawrence.

My main concerns were that I would ask a question that my friends, who are blind, would find stupid, or worse yet, insulting. But I also remembered a time thirty years ago when one of my closest friends, who happens to be black, invited me to her house for a Tupperware party, and I was the only person in attendance who was white. I remembered how awkward I had felt, but it had also given me pause to consider that she had been coming into my world all of the time, just as my friends who are blind are doing each and every day. With that knowledge behind me, I summoned up the courage to ask some of the questions I had wanted to ask, but didn't know how. I started then, as I will begin today, by saying that I hope not to offend anyone, and if I do, please know it is done out of ignorance and nothing more. The important thing is to get the conversation started.

One of the things I thought would be of interest to the population in general was which sayings people who are blind might find offensive, since our culture has so many different sayings that revolve around blindness. I am going to give some examples and I want you (the reader) to give thought to the meaning behind the word to determine if you think the saying would be positive, or negative in the mind of someone who is blind.

The following are a list of such terms. Feel free to make comments on which ones you feel are negative and/or positive, and please give your reason why.

Hunter's blind; blind spot, double blind study; blind ambition, blind justice; blindsided, blind in poker; blind in the Bible (as a picture of spiritual ignorance), blinds (the kind in your house that you open and close); blind drunk, blind faith, blind rage, racially blind; blinded by the light, blind in the Bible (John 9) made blind purposely by God for his purpose, going blind due to masturbation, blind love.

As someone who works with young children, some of whom have special needs, I have been trained to refer to children as the person they are first: an example of this is that a child has autism rather than someone is an autistic child.

In reference to the above, it is with interest that I note that the people I know wish to be simply referred to as blind. Their blindness isn't who they are, it isn't their sole being, but rather it is another bump in their road. Perhaps, it is something that makes their journey through life different from someone else's journey. It doesn't mean their journey is more difficult, or easier, than another person's journey. They do not care for the "politically correct" terms that people who are not blind want to give them. Examples of these are: visually impaired, differently abled, visually challenged, handicapable.

Over the rest of "Meet the Blind Month", I will be sharing profiles of people in our community who are blind, some information about the technology they use, and their sense of humor!

Joke: A blind man with a seeing eye dog walks into a store then stops. Suddenly he begins swinging his dog around by its tail! The manager rushes up and says, "Sir, put that dog down! What are you doing?" The blind man answers, "Oh, no problem. I'm just looking around."

By Ronda Miller

October 15, 2008

At Random

From the Citizen Journalism Academy

Discussion

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Read our full policy. Also, read about banned accounts and harassing comments.

15 October 2008
at 10:45 a.m.

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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…

very interesting Ronda!

this is a unique blog, and for you, that's saying something.

I bet other posters have other “blind” terms.

nice parallel, blind and black.
15 October 2008
at 11:03 a.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Thanks, gnome!

Care to guess which terms I gave are negative or positive?

If anyone who reads this has other terms they wish to ask about, please feel free. Thanks.
15 October 2008
at 11:49 a.m.

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Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says…

Ronda,

How about the expression, blind as a bat?

Even though in reality, I know blind folks may use a ATM as a walk-up instead of a drive-thru, it always makes me go h”mmm?” at the thought of braille on a drive through ATM.

One of my dear friends taught children who were blind and they would often come to her home for practicing everyday skills so most of the appliances in her home had braille labels, like the washer/dryer, microwave, etc. It always serves to remind me to appreciate the gifts and senses I do have. This same friend, Mary Gordon, also took her students skiing in Aspen every year for a number of years. She certainly taught them they could achieve anything they wanted and helped them “envision” bright futures for themselves.
15 October 2008
at 12:24 p.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Good one, Alia, Do you think that expression is negative or positive?

Is it the thought of the person who is blind driving through the ATM that worries you? :)

Your friend sounds like an interesting person. I am sure you learned a lot about people who are blind through knowing her.

I found out recently how bills are folded in different ways as a means of being able to tell if it is a five, a ten, a one, a twenty, etc.,
15 October 2008
at 12:41 p.m.

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cthulhu_4_president (Anonymous) says…

Interesting fact: in the field of optometry, an experiment is referred to as “masked” instead of “blinded”
15 October 2008
at 12:49 p.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

cthulhu_r_president, thank you for this information. This is the type of thing that we (or at least I) wouldn't learn if not for a discussion such as this. I appreciate it!
15 October 2008
at 1:08 p.m.

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bndairdundat (Anonymous) says…

Ronda -

Legally blind?

always had a tough time with that one
15 October 2008
at 1:32 p.m.

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bndairdundat (Anonymous) says…

Once had a friend who was “legally blind” who could shot bullseyes on paper targets all day. Very thick lenses in his glasses, served in the navy, electrician, computer programmer. And a great human being. Sometimes a disability is in the eye of the beholder
15 October 2008
at 1:38 p.m.

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Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says…

Ronda,

I guess I never that about “blind as bat” being negative, just descriptive of me without my glasses on.

Yes, it the blind person driving up to the ATM that scares me, though not much more than when my kids were learning to drive as teenagers. :~ ) Sorry, Mona and AJ, just kidding.
15 October 2008
at 1:40 p.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

I'm going to have to feel my around in this thread.
15 October 2008
at 1:43 p.m.

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bndairdundat (Anonymous) says…

Always makes me pause when I see braille instructions on the doors of restrooms in movie theaters
15 October 2008
at 1:47 p.m.

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bndairdundat (Anonymous) says…

And a friend of mine has a table saw with “Kansas School for the Blind” stamped on it. He didn't say if it was also written in braille
15 October 2008
at 2:47 p.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

Ronda: “… a list of such terms. Feel free to make comments on which ones you feel are negative and/or positive, and please give your reason why.”

Positive and negative are not in the words but in the heart.

Blind man walks into a bar… wasn't aware that it was in his path….
15 October 2008
at 3:09 p.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Ahh, nothing like letting my friendly posters in on a blog. You all never fail to delight me with your insight.

bdair, what was the reason for the difficult time with legally blind? Were you wanting clarification on what that would mean? Who decided it?

tange, nice attempt with the “in the heart”, but sometimes they are in the head as well….
15 October 2008
at 3:23 p.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

Ronda: “… nice attempt with the “in the heart”,
but sometimes they are in the head as well:.”

Ahem.

“It is only with the heart that one can see rightly;
what is essential is invisible to the eye.”

Antoine de Saint-Exupery
French writer (1900 - 1944)
15 October 2008
at 4:16 p.m.

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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…

ophthalmologists are prejudiced against blindness.

***
another term: blinding pain.

***
well, obviously blind justice, racially blind, are nice positives.

turn a blind eye can be both. it can describe someone who charitably or indulgently ignores something. it can also be used to describe someone who willfully refuses to do his or her duty.

***
mary gordon is a wonderful woman who has touched this community deeply.
15 October 2008
at 5:17 p.m.

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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…

Always makes me pause when I see braille instructions on the doors of restrooms in movie theaters
–BN
why does this surprise you? you think blind people don't go to the movies? don't go to the restrooms?

braille on atms is funny, especially since most don't have speech or braille output yet! so, one could say that a blind person using one has to work “blindly” or “fly blind” on them …okay, sorry, not so funny I admit it!
15 October 2008
at 6:43 p.m.

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bndairdundat (Anonymous) says…

Ronda - I think I understand that there can be varying degrees of blindness, just like any other illness or handicap. We used to get teased that our “blind” friend could out shoot us. He always told us he was legally blind, I assume that is what he was told by his opthamologist.
gnome - on that note I guess I could understand how a blind person could enjoy a movie, if just partially, just the same as I can when I have to watch the actors mouth the words and put that with the sound I can hear to make some sense of what has been said. Even without sight they might enjoy going to a movie with sighted friends / family. And of course they would prefer to use the correct bathroom.
15 October 2008
at 11:01 p.m.

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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…

well BN,
did you see the movie “Ray?” that was a very compelling movie telling his story very well.

yes, braille and embossed lettering signs for bathrooms and elevators definitely help!

blind people also can watch movies with “descriptive video” where a speaker gives visual information when lines are not being spoken in the movie. some theaters are equipped for this in showing current movies. many movies are available for rent or checkout with “descriptive video” naration added to play on computer, DVD, or the old fashioned videotape.
16 October 2008
at 8:35 a.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Interesting thoughts. I wouldn't even hesitate to assume that a blind person would enjoy going to the movies. It would not be different from the rest of their world and hearing the sounds from the movie and the reaction from the crowd around them. Really the same as listening to TV or visiting with friends?

In terms of “blind as a bat, I would personally think that about anytime a person is compared to an animal or insect, it would be a negative. “Fat as a pig”, “Lazy as a dog”, “Eats like a pig”. “Crazy as a fox”.

tange, I suggest in the mind because of the meaning associated with the words, prejudices associated with a word, etc. I agree that people can speak from their heart.

bndair, thinking about the term “legally blind” is interesting. Is this term used to prevent someone from doing something: driving, testifing in court against someone they may have “seen”. Interesting. I rarely think about degrees in terms of people. If someone is black, they are black - I don't think about it in those terms, but I can see that in respect to a disability it might be helpful for a more exact diagnosis.

gnome,”ophthalmologists are prejudiced against blindness”, why? :)
16 October 2008
at 9:28 a.m.

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towanda54 (Anonymous) says…

Ronda,

I don't think comparing someone to traits possessed by an animal are always negative. You certainly gave some examples of negative. Again, most of the time I've ever heard “blind as a bat” has been in someone's own self-deprecating humor. There are a lot of animals I'd rather be compared to than some people.

How about a wise old owl, soft as a kitten, stubborn as a mule (often used as both a negative as well positive description of someone's tenacity), mother hen (nurturing or over-protective), king of the jungle, strong as an ox.

Anyway, I digress from your original topic. I like your blog and look forward to reading future ones. I'll keep my “eyes peeled” :~ )
16 October 2008
at 9:34 a.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

toward, good points. I think you named a lot of good examples of positive animal/people comparisons. (sometimes animals are much nicer than people :) ) I wouldn't mind being a wise owl, but leave out the old! Stubborn as a mule would normally be taken as a negative - a positive take on that might be stands firmly by their belief. I certainly agree that what one person may take as a negative, another might take as a positive.

Want to hear something funny? I had several typos in my blog because I didn't take the time to put my glasses on. Guess who corrected me? A blind friend. Thought that might be of interest to all. ;)
16 October 2008
at 9:51 a.m.

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towanda54 (Anonymous) says…

Ronda,

It might say something about your editorial skills when your blind friend has to proof read for you, eh? :~ )
16 October 2008
at 10:36 a.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

No kidding! ;) I know two things it says, wear my glasses (I can not see if I have a typo, the difference between a comma or a period - okay, even if either is there!), and remember to use spell check. Maybe I should add a number three, send it to my blind friend before posting! :)
16 October 2008
at 2:58 p.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

Ronda,
Having had a number of blind acquaintances or simple encounters, decades ago-many surprisingly accomplished ( which, of course only speaks to my bias and ignorance )-your BLOG has left me wondering about their cognitive landscapes… how and what we would/could “see” if we, too, were sightless. And that, with the revelation that the re/storation of sight for many has proven to be an unpleasant or undesirable experience ( perhaps due to asynchronous development of the visual cortex? )

As an aside, in my early college days, I was recruited as a tutor for blind peer. Funny thing was that, whenever we got together for sessions, tutoring seemed to be the LAST thing on her mind. To make a long story short, I quickly realized that *I* was not the “tutor” she was looking for.

,;-D
16 October 2008
at 3:36 p.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

tange,

I think most of us wonder what it would be like to be blind. I went shoe shopping with a blind friend on Sunday and I enjoyed watching her as she “looked” at her shoes for the first time, and again that evening when her husband wanted to see them. She questioned at first when she was told that brown went with about every color, but decided she trusted my opinion - although she eventually went with black…:)

I have heard that some people who are deaf choose not to regain hearing through surgical procedures. That it is too overwhelming for them. I often have wondered about both: not having sight, or not having sound.

I believe there will be an exhibit coming to Union Station in November about experiencing what it is like to be blind. I am wanting to go to that.

Any information about having gone from blind to having vision restored would be of interest to me. I remember how overwhelmed my sister was at about the age of seven and she got glasses for the first time. She had been seeing birds sitting in mid air for some time and didn't know how their magical bodies did it - the glasses helped her see the telephone lines that they were perched upon.

As far as your tutoring the young lass in college - I will not venture to ask what you ended up teaching her……We'll save that for another day, another blog.
16 October 2008
at 4:47 p.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

For the sighted, it is said that vision is the dominant modality, and, so, we tend to be spatially oriented. For the blind, I would assume the aural sense to be primary, with it's temporal acuity.

So I wonder if or how our cognitive “maps” might differ, if at all. Or is does that “spatial” sense prevail at some perceptual level, since we all occupy and navigate space.

You and I have a sense of *perspective*, with an aural correlate of sounds becoming fainter in the distance, but I wonder whether that spatial sense of perspective-lines converging in the distance-can be said to exist for the blind.

On and on…

Hmm… maybe I should have taken that blind lass up on her persistent offer… who knows what doors to understanding it might have opened.

And, BTW, what I ended up teaching her was that I was not a jerk.

,;-)
16 October 2008
at 5:38 p.m.

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teachandlearn (Anonymous) says…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindness
Here is a good definition on blindness and legally blind.
16 October 2008
at 6:18 p.m.

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bndairdundat (Anonymous) says…

Thanks teach, Ronda, gnome, tang. This old right winger learned something today and nobody got yelled at!

I was once told, “If you keep doing that you will go blind!”, so I quit when I got glasses ;-)
16 October 2008
at 8:16 p.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

bndair, glad you quit in time.

teachandlearn, thank you for taking the time to post this link. I appreciate it.

tange, did you see the special, I believe it was on Dateline, this past summer about medical mysteries? It was fascinating, and getting back to Alia's comment about being as blind as a bat, it was about several blind people who are able to ride bikes, etc., because they make clicking noises which then enable them to be able to “see” what items are in their way and they can then manuver around them. I am sure this is a rarity, but it sure was interesting.

I knew you were not a jerk, but it is good to know you were never a jerk. Sometimes during our youth we have some “jerk” moments. :)
16 October 2008
at 8:46 p.m.

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denak (Anonymous) says…

I read my blind son this list, this was his response.

I don't care,

I don't care.

I don't care

Laugh

Laugh

Laugh

Mom, this is stupid! I'm trying to watch South Park.

The moral of this story is 1) don't as a 16 year old a question like this and 2) just because someone is blind doesn't mean they are the authority on a certain subject.
It is kind of like asking the one African American in a group to explain the “black experience.”

People with visual impairements come with all kinds of sight. Some of them can have 20/20 sight but are unable to judge depth. Some are totally blind. Some have no central vision but have peripheral vision. Some have the reverse. Some can only see black and white. Some can see colors. It depends on what part of their eyes are effected.

Dena
16 October 2008
at 9 p.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Dena, you have a fun, bright 16 year old, but why is he allowed to watch “South Park” for heavens sake? :)

You make some good points about differences in vision. I have a night vision problem, am far sighted, and my depth perception has always been bad. Still, I am a super athlete. Not! Although, Dena, the blind people I know do not like the term, “visually impaired”. If you are blind, you want to be simply referred to as blind. Visually impaired is a combination (or one condition) of some of the other things you named - not blind.
16 October 2008
at 9:32 p.m.

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teachandlearn (Anonymous) says…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_i…
16 October 2008
at 10:05 p.m.

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denak (Anonymous) says…

Ronda,

I used the term visually impaired because some prefer and some don't, as you said, it really is a preference thing.

My son is blind. My father is blind. My mother is legal blind.

And none of them care one way or the other whether you refer to them as visually impaired or blind or whatever.
And some people may have numerous things wrong with their eyes so using visually impaired may be the correct term. Like my parents, I don't particularly care. I will call the individual whatever they want in terms of their sight.

As for South Park, he is almost 17 and even though he won't admit it, he is just as likely to watch Nickelodian as South Park. And since he is a good kid, overall, I don't fuss to much about it. I suppose there are worst things on t.v. (lol although I don't what they may be)

Dena:0)
16 October 2008
at 10:28 p.m.

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dipweed (Anonymous) says…

Ronda,
You're a nice lady. I very much enjoy your blogs.
16 October 2008
at 10:40 p.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

weed: “You're a nice lady. I very much enjoy your blogs.”

( Brilliant! You have them ALL fooled! )

,;-D
17 October 2008
at 12:13 a.m.

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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…

well,
been busy, so this is to catch up:

I *was* a jerk, when a young adult, I freely admit it.

***
gnome,”ophthalmologists are prejudiced against blindness”, why? :)
—Ronda/the creator

well, it is a common joke among blind people, but it is also serious. a patient becomes blind, is a *failure* for an ophthalmologist. kinda like the cardiologist who loses her patient to a heart problem.

***
www.nfb.org

this organization of blind people likes “blind” as a general term for anybody with visual accuity impairment but particularly: “blind” for totally blind; low-vision for diminished vision.

and note the title of that organization: the national federation of the *blind.*

***
Tangy, I can't ever imagine you being a jerk. you showed very good ethics at a young age, congratulations.

***
some blind people, totally that is, have no recollection of color. others became totally blind later, and carry the memory of color.

blind people do think spacially, but because of the nature of sound vs light paralax isn't possible. however, many blind people besides the *sonar* Ronda describes, also can “feel” with their ears. its information everyone has, but ignores because they have sight.
the ear drum can detect the low pressure that surrounds large solid objects. that's what they “feel.”

Ronda, this is a great blog, and I'd have said it whether dipweed said so!

***
did anybody else see the movie “ray?”

note how he evaluated women?
17 October 2008
at 12:17 a.m.

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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…

Ronda!
wear your glasses!

you know, if you have trouble, you can adjust font size and color for better visibility.

and, some blind people are authors, good editors.
17 October 2008
at 1:11 p.m.

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous (Anonymous) says…

One of my favorite quotes, from the revised Wall of VooDoo…

“Now, I… I see ALL sides
Sense is not the issue
I've got the eyes of the blind”

Compare with the Biblical…

“Let those with eyes see,
and those with ears hear.”

Both employ sensory modalities as the metaphor, tho' it's clear that each is a reference, even beyond perception, to *comprehension*-something ultimately independent of the ability to see and hear.
17 October 2008
at 2:45 p.m.

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Pleiku (Anonymous) says…

Ronda, interesting topic. I have been fortunate in my life to have a deaf son and a blind daughter. I am constantly amazed at the worlds I would have never known had circumstances been different. Someone earlier mentioned about some deaf not wanting surgical help to hear. My son is the same way. He declined speech therapy in 10th grade at KSD in Olathe and took any hearing aid off for good when he went off to Gallaudet University in D.C. He is very comfortable in the deaf world and I am proud of his achievements.

My daughter has never known sight, and although we have shed some tears over the years because of that, she has not once felt left out.

Communication between the two is quite remarkable, and they have been able to converse nicely since they were young children.

Most importantly we have learned that they are just people too.
17 October 2008
at 3:39 p.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

thanks for the additional links, discussion, and information from all of you. Another term that hit me over the head last night was, “Blind in one eye and can't see out of the other.”

gnome, thanks for the clarity on the use of the term blind and why it is preferred by most, although, Dena, I certainly understand your point about each individual having a possible favorite way to be described. It is always important not to leave the individual out of any condition.

Dena, you have had some incredible experiences because of the amount of contact you have had with those who are blind. I am rather like Pleiku, in that I have known numerous people who have been deaf, or blind, although not as close to me as they have been to you in regards to relationship. The people I have known, however, have amazed me. They haven't taken the easy way out; all of them are quite at ease with who they are, they laugh at themselves, they are quite intelligent. I don't mean to group all of them in the same boat because that would mean I am not looking at the individual either.

Dena, your son can watch whatever he likes; you sound like a cool enough mom that he is able to discuss what is proper or improper with you and that is they key. Our children are exposed to everything in time, he isn't a toddler, and better in your home than another one.

Turning a blind eye.

Pleiku, you could write and book and I would read it. Fascinating!

thanks, dipweed - now if I could only fool that tange fellow…
17 October 2008
at 3:56 p.m.

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Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says…

Ronda,

This is a fascinating topic and so glad you are blogging about it.

Pleiku,

I agree, you could write a book about the experiences. I took a sign language course at KU and it was so helpful because we learned ASL, but also learned some cultural aspects of deafness. We read a book entitled, “A Loss for Words” in which the author wrote about her experiences of being the first born child of parents who were both deaf and she could hear. It's a great book, though written quite a few years ago ( I took the course in the early 1990's). Your experience and the author of this book truly reinforce the notion that families can be very resilient and accomodating of almost any condition or situation.

Here's the link about the book for anyone who is interested.
http://www.amazon.com/Loss-Words-Stor…
17 October 2008
at 4:34 p.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Thanks, Alia.

Not to switch topics too much, but the family I know where both parents are deaf had two children who were years ahead in their reading skills. The reason: they had been watching television with the hearing impaired information - words on the screen. Every time the children were hearing the word, they were seeing it and how it was spelled, punctuation, etc. I tuned ii on our televisions as well and my children's reading skills sky rocketed. I have told many parents that this is a great way to help your children read.
17 October 2008
at 4:39 p.m.

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Logan72 (Alia Ahmed) says…

Ronda,

What a great idea about the closed captioning! I'm passing it along to parents I know!!
17 October 2008
at 4:50 p.m.

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Pleiku (Anonymous) says…

Very true about the closed captioning. It becomes quite addicting to watch and really does not interfere with program at all. As I age I find my own hearing is not what it used to be so the captioning does help, especially if my bride is trying to sleep.
17 October 2008
at 5:03 p.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

Pleiku, you are surprising me more as I find out additional info - aging and with bride…. Hummmm, nice person and congrats to you!

Alia, thanks. I also enjoy using it when company may be in town - that way I don't have to hush them….
17 October 2008
at 5:57 p.m.

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Pleiku (Anonymous) says…

Ronda, I have only been in Lawrence for about 7 years. The women who became my bride moved here two months after I did. My kids are from my younger years, although they live close by.
17 October 2008
at 7:15 p.m.

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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…

Ronda, I have only been in Lawrence for about 7 years. The women who became my bride moved here two months after I did. My kids are from my younger years,
–Pleiku

interesting, polygamy?

love is blind… uh right?

in parts of Utah, the law “turns a blind eye” to practicing polygamists.

***
closed captioning with the text is also very helpful for folks who are learning english as a second language. it often serves as a real-time english lesson.

***
Deaf son and blind daughter. wow. wonder if they also scrapped like average siblings…I bet they did!
18 October 2008
at 7:13 p.m.

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

gnome, you are right, I didn't consider the English as a second language usage - good point.

Pleiku, how old are the children now? I am dying to find out if they are older or younger than the new wife, but I refuse to lower myself by asking. Okay, are they? :)
19 October 2008
at 10:15 p.m.

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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…

Pleiku, how old are the children now? I am dying to find out if they are older or younger than the new wife, but I refuse to lower myself by asking. Okay,

heck w/the kids! how old are “the women?” each of whom became “my bride!”

***
okay, no takers:

Ray Charles, as depicted in “Ray,” would evaluate women he might want to chase by feeling their wrists, see how thick or fatty they were I guess.
20 October 2008
at 9:55 p.m.

Suggest removal

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justbegintowrite (Ronda Miller) says…

gnome, I remember that Ray Charles did that. Interesting. That was such a terrific movie!

Pleiku is not wanting to give us additional information….