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Do you favor a plan that would lead to citizenship for many of the nation’s immigrants?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on April 11, 2006

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Photo of Greg McCabe

“Yes. I think deporting them is not only unfair, but also impractical.”

Photo of Bri Dukelow-Hickman

“Yes. I believe all people have the right to a good life, and the United States can provide that. I think we have more than our share of the pie.”

Photo of Peter Sieve

“Yes. They’ve been here contributing for a long time, and it’s one of the tenets of our country that we welcome them.”

Photo of Katie Hrdlicka

“Sure. They’re already here. We might as well have them working legally instead of getting jobs illegally.”


Tamara110 11 years, 9 months ago

If you want to come here, work, pay taxes like everyone else, then fine, come here, make a life for youself. But if you want to live in America you have to follow our rules. I don't think that Americans are really concered about people who want to come here to better thier lives. Its the immigrants who come here and just want to take advantage of our system that angry Americans. All you illegal immigrants who are marching to show that you want to stay, give us a reason to let you stay! Show us that you are dedicated to helping make America better.

onrywmn 11 years, 9 months ago

A friend of mine emailed this to me, so while the subject is on immigrants, I thought this may stir up some talk and make people think.

Letter to President Bush


David M. Bresnahan April 1, 2006


Dear President Bush: I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

  1. Free medical care for my entire family.
  2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
  3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
  4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
  5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
  6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
  7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
  8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.
  9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.
  10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.
  11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top , put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
  12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
  13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help. Sincerely,

David M. Bresnahan

sgtwolverine 11 years, 9 months ago

One would think the question should include the word "illegal," as legitimate immigrants generally tend to seek citizenship through the system. Isn't this issue about those who are circumventing the system?

neopolss 11 years, 9 months ago

A few points:

a) Replace immigrant with Mexican. Let's be truthful about it.

b) Most immigrants seem to have more respect for this country than its own citizens.

c) I haven't seen a good argument on the harm of illegals yet. It seems to be more of someone's irritable pet peeve than any real basis.

d) This unfairly targets legal immigrants as well. How many of you see a Mexican and automatically assume they are illegally here? We shouldn't, but we do.

e) We make exceptions for Cubans, but not Mexicans crossing over. Why is that?

f) Find me the line of American workers who want the low paying jobs on the kill floor, and we'll send back all of the illegal immigrants.

g) I think the average American could care less about this. I do think grumpy old men and hard-liners just want to bust chops.

jonas 11 years, 9 months ago

Wow, onrywmn, that's. . . .really stupid! And much of it is patently untrue, or at least heavily distorted, as well.

onrywmn 11 years, 9 months ago

I didn't write it, David Bresnahan did. I just put it out there to make people think. It's called sarcasm.

bankboy119 11 years, 9 months ago


a) this includes other people who are here illegally as well.

b) BS, they don't "respect" this country, if they did they would follow the laws like the rest of us have to.

c) been there, debated that, do you know how much money they drain from our economy? Apparently not.

d) No, I don't. I have had conversations with Hispanics who are here LEGALLY and some of them are upset about it too, why should they have had to wait and let the rest of the lawbreakers in?

e) Would you care to point out a case?

f) For all the people out there on welfare, or in prison, here's a good way to make some money.

g) I'm not a grumpy old man, I really don't consider myself old at all. I want our laws enforced. If they can do that, can I not pay my taxes? I want free healthcare too and not get punished for it.

paladin 11 years, 9 months ago

One of the principle reasons illegal immigrants work at menial jobs is because they are illegal. The assumption is being made, blindly, that once they are legal they will continue to be content to pick lettuce. Upward mobility is inevitable. They will then be able to get any job which they can become qualified for, but for cheaper. Even white collar jobs, professional jobs, maybe even your job. Middle class jobs. Then who will pick the lettuce? The former open-minded middle class Americans?

bankboy119 11 years, 9 months ago

Bob, I knew that amnesty that was granted when Castro came to power, is it still in effect today? I did not think that it was.

RonBurgandy 11 years, 9 months ago

There is a reason they are "illegal immigrants" correct? They didn't follow the system that legal immigrants did. If I went through all the hoops to become a citizen and these people don't have to, I might be pissed off too.

Good points bankboy and paladin. I am all for letting people try to make a better life for themselves, but there is a reason laws are in place to regulate this.

sgtwolverine 11 years, 9 months ago

bob, are you feeling okay today? Do you have a fever? Bird flu? Did someone get you with a taser?

sgtwolverine 11 years, 9 months ago

Just as long as you're not feeling felonly.

sunflower_sue 11 years, 9 months ago

Yes, Let's not forget the word "illegal." I wonder, what happens to all of these people when they get sick and tired of "doing the jobs that Americans don't want to do?" Will they someday finally realize that all people need a living wage and things like health insurance, etc.? Will they then demand more. And more. And more. Is that the point at which they officially become pi$$ed off Americans? I guess not since, as "illegal" immigrants, they already have more rights and resources than the legal Americans do.

sgtwolverine 11 years, 9 months ago

To apply this to current citizens, if I committed a crime in Michigan and fled to another state (like, say, Kansas), normally the police, upon apprehending me, would send me back to Michigan. Under this logic, would Kansas be required not just to let me stay, but to extend privileges to me?

I know it's a stretch, but it's not too much of one.

Larry 11 years, 9 months ago

.............or the fact that our hospitals allow illegal immigrants to give birth at tax payers expense, yet tax paying citizens pay their own insurance deductible which can run into a couple thousand dollars or more. With the current insurance problems this country has - I don't mind that my tax dollars help Americans who can't afford ridiculous insurance premiums, but I do mind that my taxes are paying for the health cost of illegal immigrants. If the immigrant has gone through the proper procedures for entering this country, we should help them.

sgtwolverine 11 years, 9 months ago

And I jsut want to know where your getting teh facts for you're argument, Multi. Their can't be truth to your post.

Charla Welch 11 years, 9 months ago

I agree with the question when taken literally. I have a good friend who legally moved to the states from Scotland a few years ago. She's been having one hell of a time getting citizenship. She finally got a greencard, after a year or so of high priced immigration lawyers, but that greencard can be revoked at any time for any thing. In about a year she will be eligible to apply for citizenship due to marriage to a citizen for 3 years. It's a long, expensive, paper-filled process that has no guarantees of working. She works more than 40 hours a week, pays taxes, owns a house, and knows more about how this country runs than I do. Why is it so hard for someone like her to become a citizen? So all that makes me wonder, if it were eaiser to become a citizen, wouldn't we have less of an illegal immigration problem? (Just so y'all know, I won't be back today to answer any questions - gotta get to work)

acg 11 years, 9 months ago

Well let me ask you guys what you would do if you were in the same situation as these illegal aliens. You know you can't apply for citizenship from here, you have to do it from home. So you're sitting over there, in some horrid little s**tsplat country where your family is starving and there is no clean water, food or job opportunities and you've done your paperwork and you're awaiting your visa (sometimes for years they wait) and still they starve and their conditions worsen. And they know that just a few hundred miles north is a better life for them and their families. A chance to eat and wear clothes and feel like humans. Do you wait? Do you starve? Do you let your children die from lack of decent medical care or nutrition? Or do you do what you have to do? I, personally, would do what I had to do and I don't fault anyone who's put into that horrible position for taking whatever steps they needed to take to make things better for themselves. I know all of the economic ramifications. I know the strain it puts on our society and all of the other anti arguments. Maybe I'm too emotional of a person but my heart breaks when I think of the living conditions in some of these poor nations. Whatever happened to give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free, eh?

jonas 11 years, 9 months ago

Ah well, I can't help what I'm offended by. Still, the only point of writing a joke like that is to throw out incendiary crap without having to take any personal responsibility or culpability for what you just said.

sorry I offended you by laughing at the fact that you have no legs, but take a joke, man!

Larry: Still, you can afford to say that because the proper procedures for obtaining citizenship would leave most of the people who really need the opportunity out in the cold. I think you probably know that.

bankboy119 11 years, 9 months ago

I believe they were talking about the tired, poor, and huddled masses that were going to come here legally.

Yes, you are too emotional. Start shooting them as they cross, that will fix it.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 11 years, 9 months ago

Sgt. Wolverine asked "Isn't this issue about those who are circumventing the system?"

We are ALL participating in circumventing the system. If you eat salads with lettuce, or strawberries on your shortcake, you are supporting illegal activity. The sirloin steak I had on Sunday was probably processed by an illegal. Thank you, Mr. Unknown Mexican Man; it was tasty. To those of you who are concerned about people swimming the Rio Grande: What products do your families boycott in protest of the exploitation of illegal labor? I've never even heard of anyone boycotting a product for the purpose of reducing our dependence on illegal immigration. Because we like it, and we need it.

Illegal immigrants are vital to our economy. We want them. We need them. For any of us to complain about Mexican immigrants coming over the border is like griping about our dependence on foreign oil while you mow your lawn using a gas lawn mower.

I wonder how our tones would change if every one of us really knew the truth about how our ancestors arrived in the U.S.? If you have an Italian name, chances are that the first generation of your family were "WOPs", which means they arrived in NY "with out papers". They just showed up. They didn't follow the rules. They didn't know the language. Many Irish did the same (except they knew more English), and I'm sure there were others.

As for me, some of my ancestors were slaves... another kind of "immigration", in a manner of speaking. America's economy has always benefited from cheap labor. First we had the slaves, then we had desperate european immigrants, now we have Mexicans swimming the Rio Grand. Next, they will probably come from Calcutta via Vancouver. We can only hope.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 11 years, 9 months ago

AGC makes a good point. My wife's uncle is about as conservative/wrapped-in-the-flag as they come, but one week in Mexico changed his understanding of this situation. His son went down on a spring break to help build an orphanage, and he went with him. When he got back, he couldn't even talk about the experience without breaking down in tears (he was only there a week). One morning, they found a baby on their doorstep. A couple of days later, the mother came back for it. She couldn't bear to see it suffer, but she couldn't bear to let it go either. What was she to do?

When we complain about how "illegal" it is, and how these people are criminals, let's remember that none of us making these posts have been in their shoes. I'd swim the river to feed my kids. I'd be ashamed NOT to if they didn't have enough to eat. Think about it.

kutwitch 11 years, 9 months ago

Think that illegal immigrants have done no damage in coming to this country illegally? Well consider the fact that due specifically to illegal Mexican immigrants several diseases that were once mostly wiped out in the US have now returned, most notably TB. Illegal immigrants bypass the health checks that legal immigrants must go through and in doing so put everyone they come in contact with at risk. I am not against the immigrants but there are many coutries in much worse shape than Mexico and if we open our doors completely we won't be able to handle the influx. It just sounds like the Mexicans think they should get special privledges. I wonder how they would feel if we let every person from India or China or anywhere else come here and compete for their jobs. It would put them right back in the same situation they left.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 11 years, 9 months ago

OMB: Unless you are doing something to reduce your dependence on illegal immigration, I'm speaking for you.

What are you doing to reduce your need for illegal workers, other than complaining? DEMONSTRATE that you don't want them, don't just "say" it! If you say one thing, but do another, Webster's calls you a hypocrite.

sgtwolverine 11 years, 9 months ago

I'm a little perplexed, oldenuf, as to whether you think it's a problem. I see that you're saying illegals contribute labor, but from your post, I cannot see if you think we should strictly enforce existing policies or if we should rethink those policies to enable such cheap labor.

If I may nitpick for a moment, too, you were a bit too restrictive on your foreign oil example. If you do anything involving electric power, you're maintaining our dependency on foreign oil. Basically, the Amish would be among the only ones credible enough to talk about foreign oil.

bankboy119 11 years, 9 months ago

I buy fresh produce as much as possible, from the farmers at the farmers market and straight from the farms whenever possible. They don't like them illegals here in Misery.

Linda Endicott 11 years, 9 months ago

Do you think American children don't starve? Do you think American children don't die from lack of decent medical care or nutrition? They do. What country should their parents go to illegally to alleviate their situation?

Everyone doesn't live the American dream. Not even all Americans get to live the American dream. It's not an entitlement. It's a goal.

Why should illegal immigrants have it better than some of our own citizens?

You know, a lot of illegals used to get here by marrying U.S. citizens. But they closed that loophole.

And while there may be points of David Bresnahan's letter that aren't accurate, many of them are. Can you think of any other countries in the world where you could sneak in, get a job, and live there for years without being caught and deported?

Any plan that includes amnesty for illegals is a slap in the face to all the immigrants that have come into this country legally. It isn't at all fair to those who have done things the proper way.

Businesses are notorious for not paying fines even when they're caught hiring illegals. Maybe what we should do instead is force them to close down for a day for every illegal they have on their payroll. That might stop them from hiring illegals.

And as far as jobs that Americans won't do...BS. I know people who have been out of work for a long time, and would be willing to do ANY job. But companies aren't looking for American citizens to fill those jobs. They'd rather exploit the illegals.

adky 11 years, 9 months ago

What about their backgrounds? We know nothing about their past crimes. Just a few weeks ago someone said there was a british guy at KU who had a conviction for child rape. We shouldn't just let them all in.

assistant1234 11 years, 9 months ago

I love how the ljw left out the "illegal" and just called them immigrants.

What a bunch of ignorant left-wing moonbats.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 11 years, 9 months ago


YES, I actually DO see our present situation as a problem, and I agree with the idea that we need decisive legislation (with enforcement) to find a solution. What I have an issue with is those of us who blame the immigrants themselves instead of blaming "the system". We want to blame the INDIVIDUALS (who are, I maintain, just doing what any of us would do) rather than blame policies/enforcement. The people swimming the river just want to work, and eat. But, yes, our present situation needs to change.

When you go to a restaurant in Lawrence and you get "attitude" from your server, who is it that gives you that attitude? Is the college girl who has never been without anything she needed or wanted, or is it the immigrant workers, such as the guys at El Mezcal? Immigrant workers (generally speaking) have an impressive work ethic compared to most "Americans" I know, yet we dispise them as if they are nothing more than leeches.

I grew up in a nieghborhood full of welfare queens and drop-outs. Those people were true leeches, most of them only contributed crime statistics. The immigrants I've encountered have been better "citizens" than most of the rest of us.

Crazy KS said "companies aren't looking for American citizens to fill those jobs. They'd rather exploit the illegals." That's absurd. Those western Kansas meat packing plants prefer non-english speakers who will get them fined over a legal worker who is less problematic?

Crazy: You said "I know people who have been out of work for a long time, and would be willing to do ANY job." Ask these people you know if they applied for any of those meat packing jobs. If they haven't, then THEY are the leeches on our government services who are worthy of your distain, not the illegals who are working hard for a living doing the jobs that your buddies won't do.

The "entitlement" mentality we see in the U.S. is coming from "us" more that it is from "them" (in my experience).

OldEnuf2BYurDad 11 years, 9 months ago


The story I heard was that the organizers of these events actually told the demonstrators to put away the foriegn flags. Not very PC when you are seeking citizenship in the USA.

sgtwolverine 11 years, 9 months ago

What concerns me here is the canonizing of illegal immigrants I'm seeing. I do agree that some cross the border to work hard and be productive, and some do have superb work ethics. But please remember: the population of Mexico is full of humans, just like the population of the United States. There are plenty of illegal immigrants who are no better than the worst Americans you described; they just have less money.

As to whether any of us would cross a border to escape to a more prosperous country: I don't know how relevant that assertion really is, even if it is true (and considering the number of people who stay in Mexico, I'm not sure how true it actually is). The fact that we might break a law or violate a policy under certain circumstances doesn't make the law or policy wrong or ill-conceived.

bankboy119 11 years, 9 months ago

Oh as for the comment somewhere up there about people fleeing because of being killed by their government (i.e. Cuba) The U.S. does have asylum status. That's different than just because they are unhappy.

I think that Bill Gates owes me some money because I'm entitled to lead a better life. Give me a break.

acg 11 years, 9 months ago

Thanks Oldenuf. I appreciate at least someone in here having some sort of compassion for others and some sense of humanity. What people seem to forget is that this is a human issue. It's not about labor, commodities, financial burden, insurance breaks, etc. It's about people. And you either care about people, all people, or you don't. What's so funny to me is all of the so called Christians in this country. They're so high and mighty one one hand but then say stuff like "shoot 'em while they're crossing". Hypocrites!!! Sheeple!!!!

Applied_Logic 11 years, 9 months ago

I have spent some time trying to respond today. It is almost impossible for me to do so coherently. I live on the west side of Olathe where it is common to see signs posted in Spanish first and English second, if at all. Every day, I live with the impact of ILLEGAL immigrants. I see first hand the cost, the 'exceptions' and the social impact. No, I don't have sympathy for their living conditions at home. Our privaliges were bought with lives, hard work and sacrifice. Our country does more for other countries and immigrants than it does it's own citizens. Jobs Americans don't want should read: Jobs Americans can't afford to take. $6.25X40X4.5X27%=821.00 a month! Most American's don't live 2,3 or more families to a residence, in fact, most cities make that illegal. Even doubled that wage means barely getting by. Yes, it sucks down there, but THEY need to change it. Try to get some sympathy from the starving and homeless here in America, or even better, GIVE them free medical care, food, bussing, education and assisted living.

MarkyDSaad 11 years, 9 months ago

Why can these people who are so longing for a better way of life not just stand up in their own country and make it a better place to live. America has also been about creating our own success. Americans have done well to invent and produce and enrich their own lives.

There was also an article or two lately that talked about the fact that many illegal and quasi-legal immigrants are here to get nice pay for a few years and then they plan on going back to their own country to live a better life there with the earnings from America. They obviously have a strong desire to make America better for themselves. Look into the Time article from 3 weeks ago.

I do not mind people coming to America and working to make a better life. I would even appreciate if some of the natural born citizens would look to make a better life since they are already here. I just wonder if we can look in to the logic of what the system can afford to sustain.

There is a reason that nature has its own cruel way of sorting out those who can not support themselves.

Nachtwolf 11 years, 9 months ago


Make the illegals get out and come back the right way.

sunflower_sue 11 years, 9 months ago

Quoted from Old enuf 10:16: "When you go to a restaurant in Lawrence and you get "attitude" from your server, who is it that gives you that attitude? Is the college girl who has never been without anything she needed or wanted, or is it the immigrant workers, such as the guys at El Mezcal? Immigrant workers (generally speaking) have an impressive work ethic compared to most 'Americans'."

I don't even think "generally speaking" takes the wrongness out of that statement. My sis works at a place where they hire immigrants. She loves going into the break room where they start talking trash about her in Spanish because they assume she can't translate. This has happened to several of her co-workers, too. So, I have to disagree with you on this unless you somehow sepatate "work ethic" from "respect for co-workers."

BTW, I rarely get "attitude" from any servers in restaurants. Ineptness, yes...sometimes, but not attitude. That's when I let my tip do the talking.

Larry 11 years, 9 months ago


I agree with you on your assessment of the poor attitudes of our youth/people in the service industry as compared to the attitudes and work ethic of some of the Central American immigrants. There really isn't a comparison. The CA immigrants will work circles around many Americans in the service industry and do so with a much friendly and patient attitude.

Applied_Logic 11 years, 9 months ago

Larry, Have you personally worked with them? I have and that was not the case. Sunflower Sue was dead on to my experience and the experiences of many people I know, including LEGAl immigrants who were laughed at for going through the process.

bankboy119 11 years, 9 months ago


That "shoot them while they come across" statement from me you were talking about, that was sarcasm. I've said it before and said before that it was sarcasm. If you would also pay attention, my last comment said Bill Gates owes me money so that I could have a better life. That was sarcasm too since you can't seem to tell the difference. If we were to shoot people trying to cross the border we would be no better than the Communists who did/do the same thing. Violence will not stop them, it would just breed more trouble. I'm sorry that my sarcasm was not made clear.

Grundoon Luna 11 years, 9 months ago

Hey, kutwitch! The people in India are competing for our jobs they are just staying in their own country and doing it. Ever heard of outsourcing? Could be your job or anyone's next! If no one would hire the illegals then they wouldn't come here to work and they would have to hire more expensive American workers which would jack up the prices. Then you'd all be bitching about the high cost of [insert your favored produce item here].

beatrice 11 years, 9 months ago

I'll have to come back and read all of this later because this is a touchy and difficult subject, so if I repeat anyone I apologize -- but at a glance I am still shocked and awed at how many in this good Christian nation of ours want to deny anyone health care. Ever. The values we claim to have for our fellow man doesn't match the values we apparently want to practice. Again, to paraphrase the Christian line -- Who would Jesus deny access to health care?

For anyone saying that the illegals are such a drain on the economy, I wonder how much of that is offset by the less than minimum wage work they provide? I really don't know, and it does bother me that they are being exploited according to our standards of living, yet making more than they would back home. By allowing them to stay as illegals, are we in essence backing a working class of non-citizens who are basically a notch above slave labor? If they would become legal citizens, would the nation benefit from the rise in tax revenues?

Finally - when people write silly things like "Our country does more for other countries and immigrants than it does it's own citizens," as was stated above, I just have to shake my head and laugh. That is just knee-jerk, reactionary conservativism.

djazz 11 years, 9 months ago

Right on Applied and Marky!

This isn't about wringing our hands and feeling sorry for everyone in the world. Its about laws, and obeying them. And yes, this is an English speaking country.

sgtwolverine 11 years, 9 months ago

beatrice, as a Christian, I cringe when you refer to the U.S. as a "good Christian nation." I don't think that's true. I also don't think it's productive to refer to a nation as such.

Also, I want to note your phrasing: "deny access to health care." That is very strong language. Denial of access is different from refusing to help someone pay for it, and it's important not to confuse those two things. Not letting you in the door of McDonald's is different from not giving you reduced- or no-cost Quarter Pounders. If you are speaking of genuine denial of access, then make that plain.

Tony Kisner 11 years, 9 months ago

What is the number, 12 million illegal aliens in the US? Change the question to Should all boarder security be done away with? Why not it appears to be only a speed bump at best.

Cheap labor arguments are stupid. I think they must have been very popular before the civil war. "If we do away with slavery who is going to pick all this cotton for free?"

Mr. Fox in Mexico does not need to face down a revolution in his country by shipping those people seeking freedom from the tyranny of corruption. If these people were to stay, and fight for a non-corrupt government in their own countries, like their willingness to protest in the US maybe their economy would start working and they would not need to come to the US for work. Mexico has all the natural resources and apparently ample and able workforce to make it a self-supporting economic system. Why not except for the corruption that is system wide in that third world country.

beatrice 11 years, 9 months ago

DasU: "Do you think that Mexico is the only place where conditions are poor?" No. But, America is the only leading industrial nation that borders a "third-world" country. America does not benefit by having these poor relations, so to speak, and our nation should look at doing what is necessary to help them rise up to "first-world" status. Then we wouldn't have the illegal problem (though we might have a problem getting someone to pick our vegetables).

Also, DasU, the people in this country speak English. No more conversations with you until you change your sign-in name. : )

Above is the first smiley face of the day. Shows you how serious this problem is.

bankboy119 11 years, 9 months ago

beatrice, just because we border a third-world country doesn't mean we are responsible for them. Should we "help" them yes, but "support" them by welfare, no we should not. Take their people back, stop coming into my country and wasting my money. They do not have a right to this country, they do not have any rights in this country.

acg 11 years, 9 months ago

I can't honestly believe what I'm reading here. Yes a lot of illegal immigrants have a better work ethic than a lot of Americans. I come across that in my own job every day. They're desperate to work and will do anything for any price. So do we blame them? Hell no!! I had no idea that illegal aliens being here screwed up everyone's dreams of hangng sheet rock for fifteen cents a sheet or picking fruits and veggies for a buck a bushel. I also didn't know that there were a lot of Americans lining up to scrape gum and ciggy butts up out of the Taco Bell parking lot for $5.00/hour. Guess what folks, there aren't!! I hear a lot being said today about sad people out there in America who are starving and need help. I've been there. I've been down on my luck and to the brink of homeless and you know what I did? I sucked up my pride and went to Burger King and flipped burgers in a menial job for $5.75 until I could find something better. Don't tell me there aren't any jobs out there for Americans if they want to work. But they don't. They want it handed to them on a silver platter. So yeah those that have said it today are correct. Someone has to do the crap jobs for crap pay and until Americans are willing to get up off of the couch and turn off the t.v. and do those jobs, they wouldn't get done without illegal labor. And what about the contractors and companies? If they were willing to pay more money for the jobs that no one wants then maybe Americans would be more willing to do them. Stop scabbing wages!! But then do we actually, truthfully need more money? We say we can't live without a certain salary. Really? Do we need that extra two bedrooms in our houses, vacations to disney world every year, an SUV, a sports car, cell phone lines for everyone in the family, internet connections in every room, dish network, cheeseburger extra value meals, 35 pairs of goes on and on. No we don't need these things, we want them. So while we sit here and bitch about how we can't afford to buy that trinket we want and how bad Americans have it, those poor bastards down there are sad because they haven't had meat in a month. I can't believe how selfish we've become as a people. I actually want to puke now.

smart1one 11 years, 9 months ago

Since you wanted to bring up the politeness of some of the illegal mexican immigrants, have any one you ever eaten at El Mezcal??? I refuse to go there because their service is so poor. On 3 seperate occasians I have walked in there and been completly ignored. Twice people have walked in after me, and they helped them first. And like someone said before, I don't appreciate being talked about in spanish. They must think that I don't understand, but I do! I just feel that if you are going to work and be in America, 1. treat women as they should be treated, stop gawking and staring and then talking about them as if they are a piece of meat and don't know that you are, and 2. just be here legally.

I've put in my 2 cents....

sgtwolverine 11 years, 9 months ago

Ubermime hit it:

" the end, the success of any measure will depend on the people in Mexico, not us."

The amount of help we might give Mexico in raising its standard of living is totally irrelevant if Mexico will revert right back to the standard it's known for a long time now. A change in Mexico may have external help, but it will have to be a change from within. Us lazy, decadent, spoiled Americans cannot make Mexico lazy, decadent, and spoiled on our own. Likewise, ultimately, nobody but Africa can make Africa prosperous and peaceful. We can pour all kind of money and aid into Africa, as we have been doing for a while, but without an internal change, it's not all that effective.

Ah, but I do look forward to the day Mexico is prosperous and people talk about Mexicans being lazy and spoiled while praising illegal Guatemalan immigrants for being hard-working and pleasant.

beatrice 11 years, 9 months ago

sgtw: Good statements, but something like 80% of the people in this country consider themselves Christian - hence "good Christian nation." Some of these same folks who are in this majority are saying the most awful things about how to treat people who are not U.S. citizens, which is my point. I'm poking fun at the whole "good" part, which is too often lacking in situations like our present situation.

As far as denying access to health care, I stand by the statement, although I acknowlege your wording. If a bleeding person comes to a hospital who cannot afford treatment, there are many who would want that person turned away and denied medical attention. Turning someone away for whatever reason has the same end result of denying that person access to treatment in the first place. So, your McDonald's analogy is really a matter of semantics since the person in question remains hungry at the end of the day -- whether for financial or political reasons.

If it makes you happy, let me rephrase my question: Would Jesus deny medical attention to someone because they couldn't pay for it? To continue with your McDonald's analogy: Would Jesus deny food to a starving person who could not afford to pay for his meal?

jonas 11 years, 9 months ago

Offtotheright: "Tell me something acg (ms know-it-all), when mr illegal mexican is hired to hang sheet rock at fifteen cents an hour, who do you think he is replacing? Could it be that husband and father of four that is now laid off because mr illegal mexican took his job?"

Bad example. The sheet-rock hangers and drywallers I have met usually aren't paying for the four children they fathered anyway.

acg 11 years, 9 months ago

TOOK HIS JOB? Do you think Mr. Father of Four approached his contractor and said "Please Mr. Contractor, I feel like my family has plenty. Please lower my wages astronomically making it impossible for me to keep this job and still be able to pay my bills? While you're at it, I would appreciate it if you could give my job to Mr. Illegal Immigrant, pay him well below a working wage, pay him cash under the table ignoring the taxes due the government altogether and ensuring that whatever he makes is his free and clear?!" No, you tell me Mr. Right Wing Bush Loving Liberal Hating OTTR, who's fault is that? Hmmm? Is it the illegal immigrant's fault because he needs the money so desperately that he will work for that wage? Or is it maybe the contractor's fault for screwing over the father of four so his bottom line would look juicier. See, here, sweetie, you're now talking about my own business, so don't talk about stuff you're not informed about. Thank you.

sgtwolverine 11 years, 9 months ago

I see your point, and I do agree with it to some extent. I'm just not sure it is best made by using the term "Christian nation." You almost let the people off the hook with that.

Here's where I have a problem with your health care statement. "There are many who would want that person turned away." Certainly, there are. But step outside of what some might want; how does the health care world actually operate right now? In this discussion, I'm not sure it's such a relevant thought unless bleeding people are actually being turned away. Otherwise, you're making an effort to tug at emotions -- and that is a dangerous element of an argument. Emotions turn quickly.

As well, the analogy may be semantics, but I don't think semantics are unimportant here, as financial and political reasons are different and call for different discussions.

As to Jesus ... I don't believe he would deny it, but I also don't feel qualified to paste His name onto any political or financial solutions I might suggest for this situation.

beatrice 11 years, 9 months ago

bankboy, you are correct. We are not responsible for Mexico, just as the Iraqi people need to take care of themselves. It would benefit us, however, if Mexico's economic situation was greatly improved over time - the sooner the better. I also agree that our borders should be stronger (anything to keep those darn Canadians out). As far as your statement, "stop coming into my country and wasting my money," I ask, doesn't our nation benefit by the cheap labor the illegals are providing? Seriously. Are they really wasting your money if the service they provide keeps a head of lettuce from costing $4.50? Don't you feel that there is currently some trade-off for their being here? I'm not an economist and I don't have numbers to back me, but I just don't want to see this as a black or white situation. There is plenty of grey in there to consider. And remember, if we build a 30 foot tall wall, they will build a 31 foot tall ladder.

I'll bet the person who is happiest about the recent events is our President. Immigration marches are keeping us from talking about the fact that it is now clear that George W. did the treasonist act of authorizing the naming of a CIA operative for his own political purposes. We should be talking about his impeachment rather than Mexican illegals.

neopolss 11 years, 9 months ago

The irony in this is very funny. I have heard complaints from many conservative supporters here (bankboy cough cough) who follow this basic line:

Immigrants being here illegally is a drain on our economy, in part because of services we give to them. From healthcare to jobs.

Is this correct?

Now, last I checked, we were spending BILLIONS in Iraq, basically doing the same thing. What was that the fearless leader said? Something about granting them the same oppurtunities Americans had, running water, electricity, decent jobs, healthcare.

I guess there's no complaints about wasting billions of dollars (that could go to Americans) to help Iraqis, who contribute NOTHING to the American economy (which most would call a drain on resources), but we raise a stink about so much as even one illegal immigrant draining tax payer money (despite contributing to the American economy).

THAT'S irony.

bankboy119 11 years, 9 months ago

Do you think Mr. Father of Four approached his contractor and said "Please Mr. Contractor, I feel like my family has plenty. Please lower my wages astronomically making it impossible for me to keep this job and still be able to pay my bills? While you're at it, I would appreciate it if you could give my job to Mr. Illegal Immigrant, pay him well below a working wage, pay him cash under the table ignoring the taxes due the government altogether and ensuring that whatever he makes is his free and clear?!"

What in the world is that suppose to mean? If it's suppose to mean, you're paying me enough that I can better myself and I don't want you to give my job to some one else that is here illegally, yes then you are correct. If it's anything else...well I can't really speculate what that was suppose to mean.

"Dear Mr. Bank President,

Since I am so well paid will you please take some of my salary to hire some one here illegally and a;sldfjwealu;sdlfksdjf.



I think I got that about right.

acg 11 years, 9 months ago

If you're not smart enough to figure it out, then I'm not going to bother explaining it to you. But then again, one who works as a bank boy I can't imagine has a lot of experience in manning jobsites, battling scab wages, dealing with misclassification of employees and illegal immigrants being paid non living wages, cash under the table. So bank boy, you and OTTR can just hang out with your heads wedged in Dubya's a** for all I care. I know that when I lay my head down tonight I can rest easy knowing that I'm not a hypocrite or a hater. Can you?

Kontum1972 11 years, 9 months ago

this is a good read:


if our boy in the oval office goes tact nuke with the iranians...u better believe the russians are not going to take too kindly to it.....then none of u will have to fear the illegals coming across the Hersch's article in New Yorker.....all the boy in the white house has to do is give the command : EXECUTE! and we are all toast..."literally" much for Easter!

MarkyDSaad 11 years, 9 months ago

I believe with the ability to perform miracles that Jesus would thus not have to spend several hours per patient on medical treatment.
Also, since he could do the same miracle in a street as he could in a cozy hospital he would have much less overhead and could charge a lot less. Perhaps, he would charge a couple fish and 5 loaves of bread and then he could use these payments to feed those same hungry illegal immigrants.
So, it might just seem a little bit of a stretch to imagine that Jesus would be worrying about the cost of health care to anyone let alone the illegal next door.

I on the other hand do have to pay for my own health care and have not found the Beth Isreal House of Jesus Healing and Soup Kithcen. So, it may still be relevant to discuss why we would need to work so hard to afford a better lifestyle to the people who for thousands of years have not evolved their own nation out from under the rule of sloth that keeps them running for the borders to acquire just such a life that was afforded not only by hard work, but the blood of patriots that were willing to die to maintain the rights to the equality and pursuit of freedom that they can also attain LEGALLY.

Until then I will continue to be well meaning to others, share and live in harmony with those who respect the rights and laws of this country, and will ask for Jesus to help me to understand what it would take for me to be able to heal and feed everyone at discount prices...

neopolss 11 years, 9 months ago

If we are truly prepared to fight off the illegal immigrants, we should prepare ourselves for much higher produce and construction prices, across the board. American workers won't due $5.50 without benefits or work comp. That's honest truth there.

Our nation has a history of Xenophobia, legal or not. We've hated the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the Chinese, the Japanese, and now the Mexicans. Just when I think we've made some progress, I'm reminded that we are just as arrogant and ignorant as ever.

I'm still looking for those workers wanting the kill floor jobs.

MarkyDSaad 11 years, 9 months ago

neopolss - I will gladly take your kill floor job if you are willing to pay me $90K a year with 6 weeks vacation, and full med bens. Otherwise you can give it to acg who seems to be having a rough time with the drywalling business these days.

Linda Endicott 11 years, 9 months ago

OldEnuf, Of course the meat packing plants prefer non-English speaking workers. They can pay them under the table, and for much less than the LAW would allow them to with an American citizen. And yes, they prefer non-English speakers, because they can more easily hoodwink them. The non-English speakers can't understand what the hell they're saying, anyway.

Get them fined for hiring illegals? Get real...few companies get fined for hiring illegals, and even if they do they rarely pay those fines.

Not to mention that all the workers at the meat packing plants, or Tyson foods, or any other low paying job, such as waiting tables, are not all illegals, nor all immigrants. Americans DO take these jobs. They just have to take two or three of them in order to make ends meet, because they aren't given everything they need on a silver platter.

Yes, I know many people who have two or three of those disgusting, back-breaking, low paying jobs. Except they have to pay taxes on those peon wages.

There isn't any excuse. I'd say if anyone has snuck into this country in the dead of night and has to hide out sometimes to avoid deportation, they know perfectly well that they are here illegally and they intended to do it that way. I doubt that anyone woke up in America one morning thinking, "oops, now how did I get here?"

If they have no respect for our laws now, why would that change if they were allowed to become citizens?

acg 11 years, 9 months ago

I know a guy who woke up in Mexico once and wondered "how did I get here?". Apparently it was a great party.

Ceallach 11 years, 9 months ago

Too busy to play today :( so I will just say I agree with the posters that I usually agree with and respectfully disagree with others :)

Something relaxing to watch and help calm the beast within you not that any of you fine folk would need that . . . .

coolmom 11 years, 9 months ago

i would do anything for my children as well...including swimming any darn river. i hope that when we use up all of our resources here that i will still be young enough to slip over the border after we and other countries help them fix their problems. i never was any good at languages though....soon anarchy. no one has to follow any laws as long as some group of people will protest it. kids you dont need to worry about that 500 hours of driving time just protest it. lots of people can protest the right to use drugs...go ahead lawrence smoke in those bars....everyone have fun!

Drew_Carey 11 years, 9 months ago

1000 points for Ceallach for giving the best video link,

and 5000 points for Chris Bliss, for performing the same routine for most of his adult life. I wonder if his wife feels their sex life has stayed as routine too.

Does anyone know what the stats are on audience participation? The other article is getting a lot of posts too.

coolmom 11 years, 9 months ago

Illegal-{adj} the quality or state of being illegal. violating the law.

Kontum1972 11 years, 9 months ago

hmmm....gawked at piece of MEAT in a mexican restaurant......MMMMMMM......Ole'!

one burrito wif extra cheese sauce por favor' .....gracias!

betti81 11 years, 9 months ago

thanks sgt. for the bbc article. i wish people would see what granting amnesty did to france and we will soon see the result in spain. and france is only dealing with 200,000-400,000 illegal immigrants...we have, what, 12million. big difference. massive consequences.

too bad Mexico doesn't have oil or some other "valuable" resource because then we could just invade them too. (sarcasm intented)

Kontum1972 11 years, 9 months ago

shades of Quantrills will there be mass lynchin's @ all the ethnic eating estab's this weekend...let's run dem all out of town.....dere' gonna be alot of hungry white folks runnin' around....if dis happens'.....

optimist 11 years, 9 months ago

  1. You must speak the native language.

  2. You must be a professional No unskilled workers.

  3. You must be an investor capable of an investment equal to 40,000 times the average daily wage.

  4. There will be no bilingual programs in the schools, no bilingual ballots for elections; no government business will be conducted in any language other than our native language.

  5. Foreigners are prohibited from voting.

  6. No matter how long you have been here you will never be allowed to hold political office.

  7. You are not entitled, to welfare, to food stamps, or other government programs.

  8. You can purchase land with, a few restrictions.

  9. You will not be allowed to buy preferred real estate such as waterfront property. That will be reserved for citizens naturally born in this country.

  10. If the property you own is desired by a native of this country you must relinquish it on demand. You will of course be compensated an amount we feel is fair.

  11. Foreigners must relinquish individual rights to property.

  12. You don't have the right to protest.

  13. You're allowed no demonstrations, you cannot wave a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our government or its policies, or you get sent home or go to jail.

  14. If you come here illegally, you go straight to jail and we're going to hunt you down 'til we find you.

  15. Finally if, as a foreigner you are caught working illegally in this country you will spend months or even years in jail.

This is a rough idea of Mexico's immigration policy. Sounds like they are on the right track. We could learn something from them.

bankboy119 11 years, 9 months ago


"If you're not smart enough to figure it out, then I'm not going to bother explaining it to you."

Classic line since you couldn't explain it.

As to dealing with the construction business. My cousin is in construction and I've had the pleasure of going through is numbers with him more than once. Funny thing, when you work in a bank, you get to see where everyone's money goes. I've seen the tax returns too and the jobs he "didn't" do. I'm not advocating that but you seem to know how the business works.

As for the hypocrite, I haven't said anything hypocritcal. If you're saying I'm a hater because I want our laws obeyed, guilty as charged.

Liberty 11 years, 9 months ago

No. I do not favor turning illegal aliens into legal citizens, just because our federal government failed all of us and did not protect our borders and let the Mexicans illegally invade this country by the millions, while the federal government looked the other way.

The foreign people from Mexico that want to obtain citizenship need to come over here through the correct channels that are already in place, or not at all.

assistant1234 11 years, 9 months ago

Actually, Mexico has plenty of natural resources, including oil. But their government would rather encourage their citizens to illegally come to the US, take our jobs at below minimum wage, and send the money back home, all tax free.

Are you all aware that Mexico has more security and stricter penalities for illegal immigration at its southern border than the US does? Why do you think that is bush-bashing hippies?

mom_of_three 11 years, 9 months ago

If they have lived here for some time, paid taxes, and obeyed laws, then by all means, let's keep them.
No, they didn't get in the country legally, but just imagine how much they went through to get here and why.

sunflower_sue 11 years, 9 months ago

Cea, That guy was awesome. I new a guy who could juggle 3 balls once...
And, Drew Carey, if I could do that, I'd milk it for all it was worth, too. But 2 points for you for just being inexplicably attractive. :)

Larry 11 years, 9 months ago

Applied Logic - I base my opinion on the treatment that I have received as a customer as what as the work effort that I have witnessed through various employers.

One More Bob- I never said that the work effort should alert their legal status.

Drew_Carey 11 years, 9 months ago

acg, gootsie, sue..nice to meet you.

If you like men who can juggle balls, you should try to see Michael Motion, one of the best jugglers ever. I saw him on a tv special of his own. I haven't seen him since, I haven't looked for him on the net. Some of the circe performers have copied his ideas.


Drew_Carey 11 years, 9 months ago

okay, it's been a long time..make that;

Michael Moschen

beatrice 11 years, 9 months ago

Marky and Das: Great responses to the WWJD questions! Just the right mix of wit, sarcasm and irony. Well done, both of you.

ass.1234: "bush-bashing hippies"? How dare you call me a hippy! Honestly, is this the best you can do? Come on, if you are going to resort to name-calling at least try to be creative about it. Beside, most of the people coming from Mexico are largely conservative in their basic beliefs and back the same things as you kooky konservatives. They are (by and large) conservative Christians with strong family ties who are adamently opposed to abortion for any reason, are against gay marriage, and believe in consumer-based economics (as shopping in a Wal-Mart on any given Saturday will tell you).

So, ass.1234, I see that you are right after all. I now insist that we stop them illegals from coming in, because one thing we don't want are more conservatives in this country! We can't even afford to pay for the ones already here! More conservatives can only mean greater national debt! Build The Wall Now!

Drew_Carey 11 years, 9 months ago

But beatrice, learn from the chinese, those damn walls only last so many thousands of years!

badger 11 years, 9 months ago

Obey the laws, or change the laws, but let's stop finding new and inventive ways to dance around the fact that we've built an entire economy on evading and ignoring the laws.

If an illegal immigrant comes to the hospital, for gods' sakes treat the person! You can't ask a doctor to turn away someone bleeding to death and still claim to hold to the Hippocratic Oath because 'he didn't have his papers'. However, after treatment, you turn him over to INS. Don't just 'forget' to file his paperwork and write off the loss.

I'd rather see it made easier for people to enter this country legally than continue with the status quo. Right now, OldEnuf, our economy may be built on that guy picking lettuce for fifteen cents an hour, I'll give you that. But that guy is part of a disenfranchised class with almost no rights, exploited and powerless because of its status. It's not only inhuman to keep a population in that state, it's downright dangerous.

Ubermime is right: We do need some controls so we know who's coming into the country. But we have got to do something to stop people from joining that class of illegals that is, essentially, fair game for unscrupulous business owners, drug dealers, pimps, and abusers.

Frankly, when you're talking about compassion, I don't see how anyone with compassion could think there is anything right about the status quo, where someone could rape a woman, or beat a man to death, and know he was above the law because he preyed on illegals and they couldn't talk to the police. I don't know how you could claim compassion and not want to end illegal immigration, which puts kids in sweatshops in US cities, and teenage girls on the streets selling their bodies because they're illegal and the pimp will report their whole families if they don't do it.

Illegal means breaking the law. I wouldn't get to just run around breaking the law because my life was bad. I don't think other people should.

I'd favor loosening the criteria on who we let in for work visas and permits, and setting a minimum wage that's something more than laughable. Then, I bet you'd be amazed at how much of the crime, and drug use, and other serious problems you'd see less of, once that population had access to a defined set of rights and protections that kept them from being anybody's meat.

KsTwister 11 years, 9 months ago

Damn the businessmen and corporations who will stoop at nothing to make a dollar,even if it destroys the country. They don't care they are sitting on their little piece of real estate enjoying the scenery and will laugh all the way to the bank. Years ago the farmers used to get the kids at the High Schools to work the fields,then we lost to lower wages. So much for my summer job.

kcwarpony 11 years, 9 months ago

Ceallach, Now that's entertainment!!

As for the question...AAUUGGHHHH! This is making my head hurt! All I know is that I didn't let them in. Now, with this issue taking center stage, I can't help but wonder what might be going on behind the curtain over there...

KsTwister 11 years, 9 months ago

Please don't name him George just because he has that deer in the headlights expression. LOL thanks

Drew_Carey 11 years, 9 months ago

I have to ask,

Is anyone else becoming ill from the Spangle's television ads?

I was interested at what the place might be, but after seeing and hearing those ads, I've lost my appetite.

A hard thing for a man like me to say I might add. Fortunately it hasn't affected my desire for brew.

I suppose if I drink enough, turn off the sound, ignore the food, there might be something there....

badger 11 years, 9 months ago

I was already ill.

I don't even know what a Spangle's is, just that it makes me think, "I'm starting to doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion!"

But I'm somewhat less ill now. My advice? Never ever ever get the Austin Death Flu. Five days of high fever, three days of nausea, and I'm still seeing spots if I do anything more strenuous than walk up or down my stairs slowly.

Darn skippy everything's better in Texas...

Jay Bird 11 years, 9 months ago

Ship em off. It's like we're being invaded in slow motion.

moralebooster 11 years, 9 months ago

Deport 'em all. Nuke Iran...and Iraq, Syria, Libya

Have a nice day

djazz 11 years, 9 months ago

Farewell United States of America

There was a time when picked our own lettuce, staffed our motels, made our own shoes.

Farewell USA, we will have pleasant memories.

We elected corrupt politicians, and "Bible thumpers" who got below market house deals and lease unneeded SUVs at our expense. And keep them in there! Soon the green and white flag will fly on the Capital.

Its too bad, George Washington, that we allowed a third world border country to take us over. I'm very sad about that as well!

But we did it to ourselves.

But we will remember the United States of America as you helped found it. what little time it has left, due to our transgressions.

logical 11 years, 9 months ago

No. I'm all for immigrants gaining citizenship legally. However, the immigrants here illegally need to be escorted back to their own countries. We need more border protection and an INS sweep of the nation. I don't want to pick on Mexican's but they are the majority of the protesters. Hey, there's a reason they no longer live there. What makes anyone think the same won't go on here. And I don't believe that children of these illegal immigrants should be U.S. citizens just because they're born here. That's crazy! Let's just have all the expectant mothers come have their babies so I can pay for them. And hello?...uh, lets put the illegals in jail? News flash! I'm paying for that too.
To all of the immigrants not legally becoming U.S. citizens: GO HOME! FIX YOUR OWN COUNTRIES! DON'T COME TRASH MINE!

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