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Should high schools prohibit sexually suggestive cheerleading?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on May 5, 2005

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Photo of Jennifer Pace

“I think it should be regulated, because the dances have gotten a little out of control for a public venue.”

Photo of Carlos Bello

“Yeah, I think so. I just think that they are a little too young to be doing that sort of thing.”

Photo of Tim Robbins

“I don’t personally see anything wrong with prohibiting that. I don’t think that schools should be proactively advocating such activities.”

Photo of Niki Fanara

“I think whatever they want to within reason is perfectly fine. As long as they’re not taking their clothes off, it’s really not that big of a deal.”

Comments

Jayhawk226 9 years, 6 months ago

Cheerleading and dance team sponsors just have to be willing to be held accountable to their administrators if the sponsor truly believe the students' routines and dances are fully appropriate.

As a teacher, I am generally more concerned about the actual lyrics of the songs they perform to.

"I'll take you to the candy shop... ...I'll let you lick the lollipop."

Yeah, kinda makes me ill seeing my sixth graders bounce around to those lyrics.

lunacydetector 9 years, 6 months ago

sure, the high schools should prohibit sexually suggestive cheerleading NATIONWIDE. the kids have it bad enough with what you read that goes on in public schools these days - the very young having sex, the easy access to porn, kids bringing guns with the occasional school shootings, a 5 year old being handcuffed by the police because of a temper tantrum, the widespread teacher / student sexual abuse, prescription ritalin abuse, etc, etc.

i didn't see the journal world article, but i did see the news in regards to Texas banning sexy cheerleading, - will they ban it in Kansas too? i hope so.

Eric Beightel 9 years, 6 months ago

What a monumental waste of time. Seems there are other things out there that are more important than gyrating on a sideline.

Are they thrusting their pelvises? Sure. Are they stripping? No.

Is there a problem? Hell no.

To equate "sexy" cheerleading with the problems faced by our young students with regards to sex at an early age is foolish. They aren't learning about sex from the cheerleaders.

This has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Fangorn 9 years, 6 months ago

Absolutely! Teenagers are bombarded with enough sexual imagery as it is. School activities shouldn't be throwing more gasoline on the fire. Hopefully there are enough adults left in our schools to enforce such a rule. And for any who feel unsure of what position to take, let me ask: Would you be comfortable at a game and seeing your daughter/granddaughter/sister on the field or court displaying herself in a sexual manner for the whole city? Men especially, remember what it was like in high school. I don't think we had any sexual predators but I'm quite certain Francis of Assissi didn't attend my high school. And how do such displays encourage young men to think of young women? As pieces of meat, or as Jayhawk226's students might put it, a "lollipop".

Topside 9 years, 6 months ago

No! High school administrators should stay out of my suggestive cheerleading viewing. What else does a dirty old man have to do around here?

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

Hey, I've already graduated high-school, so if they wanted to ban sexy cheerleading now it's no skin off of my teeth. I'm just glad they didn't do it then.

misseve 9 years, 6 months ago

Dont these squads have coaches?? are the coaches teachers or other adults?? Dont the coaches see what they are working on so ummm you'd think if there was a problem they would nip it in the butt before it gets to a game or pep rally.... Can there be a question that actually is worth something???? like how many accidents need to be at the enterence of the East Hills Business Park before KDOT thinks there is a problem there

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

As embarrassed as I am to admit it...I was a high school cheerleader (pom pon, drill team, whatever you want to call it). Yes, I should be in therapy! Truth be told, our "coach" was never around and not once in four years did she ever preview a routine. We did a dance that we had learned at a summer camp (taught by college girls) and not until one of the teachers made a HUGH fuss (after we did the routine at a school assembly) did I realize that what we were doing was suggestive. Looking back, OH MY, I would not want my daughters doing that in front of 800 teenage boys!!!!!

As for music, at my daughter's kindergarten roller skating party they played "I like big butts". Sounds bad enough there but the song actually gets much worse if you ever actually listen to all of the lyrics. What are these people thnking??????

Richard Heckler 9 years, 6 months ago

No there is not a problem

Now let's see most cheerleaders parents are active in school activities so if there is/was a REAL problem let's leave it to the parents. What exactly is sexually suggestive? How do we know a move is considered sexually suggestive? Who do we consult on sexually suggestive moves? Whether or not a move is sexually suggestive could very well be an individual matter. Do guys see things different than gals...more than likely. OK guys chill out. What about suggestive moves by the male gender???

There were two accident in the last three weeks at the East Hills location...one was FOUR cars.

There will probaly be 6000-7000 dead american soldiers by the time Bush is out of office. Scores and scores of permanently disabled vets...so why did Bush cut veterans benefits?

Science or Religion Creationism/intelligent design seems to be based on someone's interpretation of the bible. Is this true? Is there empirical data available accompanied with years of research? What is the foundation for a textbook? How does one become certified to teach? Who brought this idea forward? Is this to be included in a biology course...if so how?

What is the true motivation? If it is teaching a narrow view of Christianity,which I suspect, there is no way that this should take place in a public school.

If the desire is to teach religion in public schools then certainly that is acceptable if the broad spectrum is offered as a class:all or nothing. Teaching any one religion on it's own is not acceptable...leave that to the seminary schools. I offer the following as a guide to religion instruction for the public school system to consider: http://www.awsna.org/renchristian.html


Looks like another great day to be outside but please boys and girls,men and women no suggestive moves while you are weeding the garden,working or riding your bike. If suggestive moves make your day brighter go for it cuz it's such a lovely day.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

OMB, I get your sarcasm. But, on the other hand, I read last week that if girls grow up watching romance fairy tales, they will be more likely to get into abusive relationships as adults. How about that? Disney=violence!

wichita_reader 9 years, 6 months ago

Ditto to T_O_B's post. Every cheerleader, male or female, suggests sex on some level. Maybe that's a little too Freudian, but I believe it holds true.

Why not ban casual conversation between students? No, beyond that ban any contact whatsoever between students. And it can't just be opposite sex students, it has to be all students in today's world. Because you know, those conversations lead to sex.

Give me a break. This issue is a freakin' joke, but it's good to see Kansas isn't the only back a**wards state.

italianprincess 9 years, 6 months ago

I don't even know what to say about this question. My son's girlfriend is a cheerleader so let me ponder on this for a few. Be back later with a possible answer.

remember_username 9 years, 6 months ago

Please define "sexually suggestive" in a way that can be enforced. I haven't been to a high school event with cheerleading so I'm not sure what is described. I can use my "imagination" and come up with something that, as Fangorn suggested, would be unpleasant to see my daughter/granddaughter/sister doing - but is that what is actually happening? Also "sexually suggestive" to one person is normal to another.

The last event I went to had K.U. cheerleaders performing and I didn't find it "sexually suggestive". Is everybody here telling me that the high schoolers are behaving more erotically than allowed by the university? If so, that startles me and I find it difficult to believe. Please respond (those of you who actually have seen the behavior).

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

There is a difference between "suggests sex on some level" and pumping your hips on a gym floor in front of hundreds of onlookers. Are you saying that you wouldn't know the difference? I agree that drawing the line between "some" and "blatant" might be a difficult task. But are we not given commen sense to help us out just a little? If we know the difference between "nude" and "naked", how can we not know the other? Guess I'm just a little bass ackwards when it comes to MY children.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

R_U, Yes, I've been to both KU and high school events and the high schoolers are definately worse. I've never seen KU's dancers or cheer leaders do anything I thought was offensive.

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

"Should high schools prohibit sexually suggestive" we should all stop there and shout YES.

Should an enlightened, civilized, blah, blah, blah, society even have to ask such a question?

We are not talking about the Dallas Cowboy's Cheerleaders. This is about high school girls imitating the professional cheerleaders, and the junior high girls imitating the high school cheerleaders.

No surprise, I agree with comments made by Jayhawk226, lunacydetector, Fangorn.

Surprise, I agree with most of macon47's post. At one time I loved living in Lawrence. It offered convenient access to both Topeka and Kansas City, and a quiet, small town atmosphere that one would not expect from its size. However, the compulsion to be PC by the ruling class has soured me to the point that I now consider it just a place to live, and no longer feel connected to the Lawrence community.

remember_username 9 years, 6 months ago

Ceallach - what's funny about what you just said is that often I feel the same way about the "ruling class" in this community and I think you and I are coming from different political perspectives.

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

r_u: I have given a lot of thought to my political perspective through the past decade. My opinions and the values I hold dear have not changed, it seems to me the Democratic platform has taken such a hard left turn, I find myself on the conservative side, who knew? I am a registered Independent and feel quite comfortable railing against both sides :) since both sides provide cause to rail.

Centrist 9 years, 6 months ago

These girls are still kids .... remember that!

Jayhawk226 9 years, 6 months ago

And to add to your last statement Centrist...

..."these girls are still kids" under the supervision of licensed educators.

Though I can critique their generation, I won't....I hold the educators responsible for seeing to it their club/organization represents the best interests of their middle/high school with dignity and class.

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

That makes a pretty heavy job description. Some think too much expectation is put on our educators today. Are they to be all things to all children? Or, should their parents and community contribute standards and guidance?

christie 9 years, 6 months ago

Define Sexually Suggestive. The Taliban defined it as any woman not wearing a burka.

wichita_reader 9 years, 6 months ago

Sunflower_Sue: what is the difference between nude and naked? I'm stumped on that one.

For all those complaining about a PC society, ha!, majority rules. I've been choking on conservative Christian beliefs in Kansas for my whole life.

I still haven't seen anyone explain what is sexually suggestive and what isn't. I haven't read the Texas law, but my opinion is that it won't pass constitutional muster if challenged. So long as the dancing is not obscene, I think it's probably protected by the 1st Amendment. And sorry moral majority, shaking, pumping, gyrating, however you want to manipulate your completley clothed hips, buttocks, or pelvic region, is not obscene by Constitutional standards.

I think the tango is quite sexually suggestive. Does that mean high school dance teams can't tango at halftime, should they choose to? Besides the complete lack of an enforceable standard, what good is stopping these so called sexually suggestive dance moves during cheerleading routines going to do. Do you really think it's going to stop high schoolers from having sex. I don't. Don't you think your kids have lots more sexually suggestive encounters throughout the day?

I went to a small, extremely conservative town high school, and there was way more sexually suggestive stuff going on in the nooks, crannies, and corners of the school during breaks than I have ever seen during a cheerleading halftime show at any level of sporting event, high school, college, or professional.

Wake up mom and dad. Sex is a part of life. It's not going anywhere. I think most kids and young adults know the difference between dancing and sex, and believe most accept danciing for what it is, dancing.

To paraphrase the MasterCard commercials:

Educating your child about love and sex-good. Protecting your child from a sexual predator-good.
Protecting your child from sexually suggestive dance moves-impossible.

Maybe the parents need to grow up. Who's really enlightened?

raven 9 years, 6 months ago

I have to agree with most that it certainly does not hurt anything to prohibit "sexually suggestive" cheerleading. Why not? Certainly it is not going to solve all problems, not even at the age group it is targeted. But, it can hurt anything for young girls to not be sexually suggestive. So, again what is the argument to not ban it?

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

o_m_b: that is a big problem for educators and the public alike. Remember we have to live around these children who are raising themselves -- home alone much of the time -- indifferent toward the 'quality time' their parents find to give them -- rebelling against any restrictions or limitations. The law states that no child should be at home alone if they are under 12, (at least that was the age last time I checked). That law is broken so often. When children suffer society is going to pay, it's just a matter of time.

And remember folks, these are the generations that will be caring for us in the nursing home.

Jayhawk226 9 years, 6 months ago

cellach--as an educator, I agree, I feel like my duty extends WAY beyond just teaching the required curriculum.

But if we are to figure out who to fault for students conducting sexually suggestive routines during school-sponsored activities, which require supervision, an educator/administrator is to blame. Teachers are not required to teach kids how they "ought" to dance, but should use their discretion is allowing/disallowing inappropriate behaviors.

That is in our job description...or at least, is implied anyway.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 6 months ago

As a 1963 high school graduate the cheerleading routines do not seem anymore provocative today than 42 years ago. I seriously doubt if some group had not brought this to the surface it would not be a matter for discussion. With all due respect many of us take some issues more seriously than we would have years ago simply because we now have daughters of which we have two.

Good parenting provides direction which will keep our children's feet on the ground. Cheerleaders are having fun and are not necessarily likely going to indulge in sex anymore than other children...the best we can do is offer our life's experience, keep loving them and provide additional emotional support when they are showing need.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 6 months ago

Talk about sexually suggestive what about the trousers football players wear during the game....my wife says they leave nothing to your imagination. She says she is sooo glad that this issue came up because we can now look forward to baggy football trousers....don't bring up track.

Some people have way too much time on their hands.

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

Jayhawk226: true, as an educator, what are the odds you won't have to fight the parents (mothers) of some cheerleaders if you discourage sexually suggestive dancing?

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

Wichita, Leaving Webster completely out of it, Nude is lacking clothing where appropriate (i.e. in the privacy of your home, on a permitted beach, on stage in a life drawing class, etc...). Naked is lacking clothing where not appropriate (i.e. streaking across a football field, eating a burger in McDonald's, mowing your lawn in town). My point was only that there are places where certain movements are appropriate (unless completely fridgid or prudish) and where they are not!

More definitions: Soil is what you grow plants in. Dirt is what you get under your fingernails! (please read this with the lightheartedness that it was written)

raven 9 years, 6 months ago

I don't see where educators would be fighting parents if they ban sexually suggestive dancing. What parent is going to fight for their child to be dancing suggestively?

GreenEyedBlues 9 years, 6 months ago

I may perhaps be the freshest one out of high school who has yet to post. Perhaps. Graduated in 2002. A lot of the ladies I hung out with were involved in the dance troupe/cheerleading. Of course, there were thrusts, gyrations, and booties abound at every halftime show and pep rally.

These girls aren't stupid, though. Please don't think for a minute that just because they might perform a show that might be a little too risque that they're going to go out and having sex with every guy in school. Along with a public education, you also get sexual education, complete with scary and mentally scarring slides of venereal diseases! AAAAH! Paired with the overall attitude that being a whore is socially unacceptable, these girls are gonna know when to say 'no'.

The way they dance reflects what's been on MTV for almost twenty years. They listen to the charts, and go home and watch it on T.V. Not to drag media in again today as a scapegoat, but this 21st century dancing.

If it's in the schools' interests to remove such shocking dances from their athletic events, then so be it. That doesn't bear much leverage against the other 95% of the problem.

remember_username 9 years, 6 months ago

kns - "start going down that road"? I think you went almost out of sight. Thank goodness there's a character cap on these posts :).

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

kns, gosh, that makes me want to slip into my old cheerleading uniform (that is, if I could still fit into it) and wait for the hubby to come home for lunch! Shame on you. He'd never know what hit him, but I'm sure he'd thank you. I'll leave the bananas and syrup for dessert, though.

Fangorn 9 years, 6 months ago

I cannot completely protect my daughter from the cold. But I make sure she wears a coat when the mercury drops. I cannot completely protect her from ultraviolet radiation. But I ensure she wears sunscreen when we go to the pool or beach. I cannot completely protect her from disease. But I make sure she washes her hands and eats a healthful diet. And if my daughter's school ever allows activities (dance routines or whatever) that encourage boys to see girls as objects, you can bloody well bet your small intestine that the school administration will hear from me. No, we cannot stop teens from having sex. But parents shouldn't make it easy or convenient for them. And a community shouldn't encourage or condone the glorification of it. But routines full of pumping, grinding, and gyrating young girls do exactly that. If a voluntary, student-led prayer before a game constitutes an "establishment of religion", then a kiddie burlesque show at halftime certainly constitutes encouragement of sexual behavior.

Grammatically, "nude" refers to an unclothed body. "Naked" refers merely to something that is exposed or uncovered, including a body. You could have naked wires or hilltops, for instance, but you wouldn't call them "nude".

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

Well said, Fangorn. Why don't we leave it at that? Oh, 'cause that would be impossible.

enochville 9 years, 6 months ago

No one such be made to feel uncomfortable at a school function. If we can't pray before school games out of sensitivity, then young women shouldn't dance suggestively at a school event.

Jayhawk226 9 years, 6 months ago

i would agree....but to ban it statewide.

stupid.

super_b 9 years, 6 months ago

Hi, long-time reader, first-time poster. I think there's an interesting distinction that was made between the college cheerleaders and high school cheerleaders. I've noticed in my wanderings about Lawrence and elsewhere, that the teenagers of today want to grow up way to fast. I've seen so many 13-year-old girls wearing clothes that I would never wear - and I'm in the age group the clothes are being targeted to. I think the sexually suggestive dance routines is just another way to try to grow up more quickly. And these teenagers aren't going to realize just how much they missed out on when they're acting 22 when they're only 14.

Jayhawk226 9 years, 6 months ago

what could we ban next that is sexually suggestive or an educational nuisance?

catholic school uniforms?

Jayhawk226 9 years, 6 months ago

there ya go bob!

give that council some more time, we have that wish granted.

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

O.Bob: C'mon, you didn't expect an actual question to get answered, did you? At any rate, isn't it obvious? Sexually suggestive, in this context, is defined as "anything that makes me feel uncomfortable." There IS no solid definition, and what we actually have here, as Ubermime said, is simply a generation gap. Hell, at one point flashing your ankles was sexually suggestive. Honestly, to fall back on an argument of "I don't want my daughter, granddaughter to be doing that" is not gonna fly. Parents/grandparents should just admit it, they have an extremely biased perspective, and they, really, don't want their female children doing anything that in any way reflects against purity and chastity.

Bravo to those admitting that cheerleading itself is sexually suggestive. Why do you think yell-boys (or whatever they're called) sign up for the team. (Hint: it's not about school spirit).

This is sure to go over well, but here goes. You can be sexually experimental in high-school and NOT SCREW UP YOUR LIFE. You can be sexually experimental past college and let it screw up your life then, too. The difference is not so much age as (cough) experience, (not just sexual) that give you a sense of personal identity and worth, and the restraint to not sacrifice yourself for something like sex. Kids will be sure to be less astute in that area than adults, but that's through experience, not some magical development that comes up solely by aging.

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

Perhaps, Fangorn/Sunflower Sue, your energy would be better spent encouraging your own children to not view women as objects, than to embark on a Quixotic quest against sexual exploitation as a whole.

ive_got_my_ascot_n_my_dickie 9 years, 6 months ago

What's up with "doggie dancing", where the girl bends over and her date pretends like he's boofing her from behind? Is that really dancing? I think not!

jay_allen 9 years, 6 months ago

Actually, Hugs And Kisses, it was "big, sturdy table"!

And I'm still sitting here feeling absolutely stunned by that post! Such attention to detail! Kind of makes you wonder what KNS would have wrote if there were no rules or boundaries on this board, doesn't it?

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

Does anyone know the price of tea in China?

GreenEyedBlues 9 years, 6 months ago

Ascot said "boofing" and I'm still laughing. KNS that is so scandalous! Cheerleader sundae on a sturdy desk?! My lands. =)

I agree with Jonas 100%. The most effective parents talk 1-on-1, no holds barred with their children. Treat them like adults, and they'll behave more like adults. Ranting to the schools and fighting the Board of Education tooth-and-nail is a real embarrassment for kids, not to mention a truly wasted effort if you aren't talking openly about sex, drugs, or otherwise with your children.

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

Wow! I thought I had stepped into an internet chatroom for a minute. Its getting pretty steamy in here thanks to KNS. I need a cold beverage....

On today's topic, I hate to say this but when I was in high school (a little more than a decade ago) the cheerleaders were sexually provocative (sp?) even without the dance routines. They were always the girls in the tightest shortest clothes. They were always the girls flirting with the whole football team at lunch. They were always the girls who "got a little wild". Why are we surprised about their dance routines? With the media the way it is are we surprised about anything that teenagers do? Those girls wanted to turn heads and get the "blood pumping" when I was in school. They usually come up with their own routines and if they are taking any cues from MTV or BET, than bootie-dancing is what we're gonna get. Remember when Elvis' hips were deemed too suggestive for TV? Teenagers live to shock the "old fogies". This is more of the same.

Now I feel like watching "Bring It On".

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

Let me add that I would be mortified if my daughter ever wanted to be a cheerleader. I think a better word for those girls would be "tease in a short skirt".

wichita_reader 9 years, 6 months ago

Fangorn: I think hormones cause boys to see girls as objects. Sure, cheerleading and dancing contribute, but I would bet my large intestine (I raised you), even if you stick twenty conservatively dressed women in the middle of a bunch of hormone-laden teenage boys, and the women stood completely still, not moving a muscle, at least one, if not many or all of the boys, is/are going to think sex.

And while encouragement of sexual behavior may not fit in with your religious mores, it's not unconstitutional; however, preventing freedom of non-obscene expression is.

Still waiting on the definition/distinction of sexually suggestive dancing as opposed to non-sexually suggestive dancing. Again, I posit that any and all dancing is sexually suggestive.

Haven't you all seen Footloose?

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

More bad 80's movies referenced today. Yeh! Let's not forget "Footloose" was supposed to take place in Kansas.

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

Calleach: According to Ku info, the current market exchange for US dollar to chinese currency is 1 to 8.08. The price of tea in China is currently 2.99/oz in US dollars, so you can figure the actual price in China itself using those figures. Or at least a close approximation.

Also, if you're curious, here's a website that lists the price if tea in Sri Lanka.

http://www.pureceylontea.com/teasalesdata.htm

}B-)>

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

GreenEyedBlues: I think the point some of us are trying to make is that we do not want our children to act like adults or be treated like adults.

ksn: giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are a fairly normal guy (don't ask for an explanation of normal) if cheerleaders and their dancing elicits fantacies of that proportion for you (a normal guy) what do you think they do for sexual predators? It is highly hypocritical to say we don't want our children used as sexual objects but we want them to have the right to behave in sexually suggestive ways without any fear of (here comes that very bad word) censorship or being in danger from predators.

Women behaving in a sexually suggestive manner are usually quite capable of dealing with inappropriate responses from men (normal or otherwise). Girls are not. There seems to be a problem with some posters understanding the difference. We are not talking about women we are talking about girls.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

jonas, Trying to do my best with my own daughters and did not suggest in any of my posts for a mass banning of sexually suggestive material. Yes, of course, we view those cheerleading outfits as "sexy". Heck, why do you think I wanted to be one (and was) in high school? Should we ban those speedos that the swim team wears? NO. Do we even view swimmers as sex objects? NO. I'm just saying that something has gone wrong along the way. Cheerleaders are now just objects. You can argue all you want that they "promote spirit" but seriously, will the crowd stop yelling without them? All that being said, I have one daughter that wants to be a cheerleader and one that thinks it's the dumbest thing ever. Will I let my daughter be a cheerleader? It's her decision. Perhaps YOU read too much into things.

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

jonas: I love KU info, it is a real shame that it is gradually going away!

pencer863 9 years, 6 months ago

Once again, Americans reveal their curious priorities. I noticed a recent group of polls in that worthless magazine, Time, that showed moms and dads are far more comfortable with the kids seeing violence than with seeing breasts, buttocks, kissing, etc.

Something similar goes on with sports. Let's get together to see football players crash into each other at high speeds, maybe even cheer when a player from the other team is put out of the game with injuries, but by Jehovah, don't you dare suggest anything remotely resembling sex.

No wonder there is so much depression, rebellion, and emotional maladjustment among young people. They are raised by hypocrites in a hypocritical culture that sells sex everywhere and gives more attention to Janet Jackson's unremarkable nipple than to the Asian tsunami. Then, people turn around and want to restrict cheerleading.

kansas 9 years, 6 months ago

Sexually suggestive cheerleading?! Huh? What? Oh, come on! Who cares?! I was so sure that today's question was going to be about the evolution/intelligent design showdown in Topeka! Now that's a far more interesting topic to discuss, don't you all think? Hmmm........maybe that will be the LJ World question of the day tomorrow? (Should have been the question of the day today....But, oh well! Whatever!)

Now if you will all excuse me, it's 12:00pm and it's my lunchtime. I think I'll skip lunch and drive by my house just a few miles from here and check to see if my kitchen table is sturdy enough, before my spouse comes home tonight. I want to see if it's sturdy enough for serving dinner on it, of course!! Ahem! Ahem! ;)!

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

S-Sue: Whoops, I guess I owe you an apology. I looked back over the comments and the quote that I considered when including you in that group was actually posted by someone else. Still, I think it should be considered what a slippery slope banning or barring anything can be without a defined definition of what is to be banned.

Are you suggesting, though, that cheerleaders were ever, in truth, anything other than objects? I mean in terms of their outside looking in perspective, not their personal thoughts or abilities. The only point I've ever seen in cheerleading was to have something pretty and arousing to look at when the teams weren't playing. (before ESPN decided that was the time they were going to start showing the sweating, angry coaches' face {FOR SHAME!})

Unfortunately, I think if you look around - objectification and dehumanization has become the name of the game for a large part of our society, and not just in terms of women either.

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

O-Bob: Yes, you've hit on the keystone of my personal philosophy. "Going too far the other way is a bit rediculous." (though I usuall omit the "a bit") There needs to be a balance, and I'm sorry, but a beaurucratic agency such as a school board, local commission or federal govt. is, ahem, NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO FIND IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

Ceallach, as the mother of a girl, I understand the distinction you are making about girls vs. women. But the reality is that those girls are rapidly becoming women and banning "suggestive"dancing makes as much sense as banning minskirts. Young women (and men) are exploring their sexuality and its up to parents and other adults to guide them down a path that allows them to feel empowered. I hate the objectification of young women in the media but I am also am a realist enough to know that we idolize the perfection of youth. It has always been that way. I think the concept of the cheerleader is a representation of that ideal. Its such a cliche really. I remember my father-in-law joking that he couldn't wait to go to his youngest child's game so he could "ogle" the cheerleaders. He's not a pervert or a predator but he is a red-blooded male and we all know that it takes very little to get a man's imagination going. My point is, if we go around banning anything "suggestive" the kids are only going to bite back harder. I'd rather raise my beautiful daughter to be smart and confidant. With those tools she should be able to maneuver the pitfalls of objectification. I did and my self-worth is intact. I remember the power that comes with sexual/self awareness. If you combine that with common sense and intelligence you can become a woman to be reckoned with.

Good points about sex and violence, pencer863. Wasn't it just yesterday we were talking about that topic. Maybe the day before....

Amy Bartle 9 years, 6 months ago

to Kansas Cheerl who wrote "After reading all of these comments, I came to the vast realization that nobody who has responded knows anything about cheerleading in today's youth. " Well I'm someone who also is involved in today's cheer and dance programs and I made the comment that the Free State uniforms showed too much skin. And by the way, I supposed you can assume the parents were okay with the low cut pants and short tops. What happens today is that parents are much too busy or do not speak up to the coaches because many of the coaches do not respect them or take them seriously. I totally agree that today's cheerleaders and dancers are amazing athletes. I'd just prefer that there be more focus on their athleticism rather than bodies. And yes - the local schools need to allow the high schools AND jr highs to compete just like the rest of Kansas schools do. Then they would see that there are many high quality teams in Kansas who can "shake it" and still do it with class.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

jonas, I don't even know what I'm suggesting anymore. I guess I'm just mostly bothered by why so many women, I included, occasionally want to be objectified. Yes, I'll admit to that. I was even delighted when the hubby came home for lunch and said he could have that old uniform altered to fit my "130 pound, spit out a couple kids" body. I'm not kidding myself in any way that my daughters, at some point, wont want to feel the same way. Just hope to put it off until they are capable of making GOOD decisions.

One of the best lingerie ads I ever saw said "While we don't necessarily dress to please men...it doesn't hurt, on occassion, to see one drool like the pathetic dog that he is". Still makes me laugh. Hee Hee Hee Hee

acg 9 years, 6 months ago

Wow, 75 posts at 12:30? Hot topic, I guess. Weird topic if you ask me. I think all dancing is sexy, in a way, except maybe waltzing like they did in the old days. I don't think we can expect the male population (sorry guys no offense intended, but you have to admit you are generally horny people) to see a group of pretty girls in tiny little outfits jumping around to music being all bouncy and happy and jiggly and have them not think about sex. Isn't that why they put cheerleaders out there in the first place? There's a lull in the game, they throw out the hot girls in short skirts to do split jumps and hip thrusts so the crowd doesn't get bored. And at most sporting events the crowd is made up of a lot of men. I do admit in high school it gets a bit risque and I think we need to make sure our coaches and sponsors do their job. The girls can still do great routines and be pretty and cool and sexy (yes, sorry parents, of which I am one, 16 and 17 year old girls want to be sexy) and not go overboard. But still is this something we need to waste time banning? Banning anything is so scary to me.

Amy Bartle 9 years, 6 months ago

The coaches and sponsors at local schools should take a more active role in oversight of uniform choice and music and moves choices. Cheerleading and dance team can be done very professionally without being old-fashioned. The Olathe Schools do a good job of running high quality dance and cheer programs- most of them have tasteful uniforms and respectable choices in music. I was outraged when I saw the LHS pom girls probably 7 years ago wearing very low cut jazz pants with sports bras. I asked their coach how they were able to wear it, and she shrugged her shoulders and said "well - that's what they picked". That lack of accountability is outrageous.

bleeding_flower 9 years, 6 months ago

To me this discussion is along the same lines as wether it is the women's fault of dressing to suggestively when she got raped. That because of the short skirt and tight shirt she was asking for it. Maybe high school cheerleaders are dancing suggestively, but come on it is and will always be good clean american fun.

Liberty 9 years, 6 months ago

Perhaps if we return to the moral compass of our Creator God and read His book and received instruction from Him, we would know what is appropriate behavior in God's presence and what is not for women and men. He has already told us the correct answer, but how many people are seeking His wisdom and are listening to Him these days???

Jayhawk226 9 years, 6 months ago

God who?

We were talking about cheerleaders and how they do a routine in a public school.

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

hehehe, good one. I guess we love our sex (cheerleading) and our violence (football) together. How depressing. I'll still take "Nipplegate" over "Cops" anyday.

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

Hey, our biggest sex organ is our brains, after all, folks.

Right on, jt.

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

jt: between kns sharing his fantasy and you so graciously providing an in depth analysis of mine, today's board has proven to be quite -- thought provoking.

BTW, If anyone here still thinks the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, I have a bridge to sell you :)

italianprincess 9 years, 6 months ago

Free State High School has already banned dancing in a manner of suggestion for their dances because someone on the student council didn't approve of it. They actually had their mascot ( a person in a bird costume ) dance on video the appropriate way and the wrong way. I didn't get to see this video, but my son said it was to funny. He mentioned how this bird was dancing with someone who was about a foot in front of him. There was a stroy in the paper about this awhile back if you remember. If a teacher witnessed anyone dancing like the people on the big video screen at the dances they were warned and if they did it again they were asked to leave.

As far as cheerleaders doing their thing I think its fine. They should be more worried about racism, gangs, and drugs at school. Yes a cheerleading sqaud may have moves that are a bit wild, but at the same time it doesn't make them bad girls. They all have to keep up their grades, stay active in school and present themselves well.

We can go back to the 50's where the cheerleaders wore skirts to the knees, bobby socks and very tights sweaters. After the BIG game they can head over to Penny Annies for a milk shake. Oh, nevermind they would be closed already.

Sounds like the movie " Pleasantville " to me.

BunE 9 years, 6 months ago

Who the heck is He and Him? Our Creator? Are you talking about my parents? I be jesus was a good yell leader? Liberty: Shouldn't you be in Topeka "cheerleading" the Intelligent Design" farce?

Cheerleaders are funny.

nipplegate is a funny word.

Jayhawk226 9 years, 6 months ago

TOB...thank for citing that part of the Bible that clearly lays it all out for me now.

I must have totally misssed that part in Sunday School.

; )

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

My aunt told me (right before my wedding) that the way to keep a man happy was to keep his belly full and his winkwink* empty. Always loved that advice and still makes me smile almost 10 years later.

Jayhawk226 9 years, 6 months ago

carmenilla....i'm single and seeking my wife.

i will carry those words forward with me as I continue my lengthy search.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

extreme makeover, and whoever else out there cares to know, those "cheerleader briefs" are called "Spankies". That info just might throw kns's fantasies over the top! WHEW!

simple_simon 9 years, 6 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

I didn't complete the answer. Some girls wore with and some w/out undies. We were actually told a particular brand of undie to wear underneath. Can't remember the name of those, however. Oh wait, now I do. They were called "Love Pats"

kansas_cheer 9 years, 6 months ago

After reading all of these comments, I came to the vast realization that nobody who has responded knows anything about cheerleading in today's youth. Whether it is high school students or college students, it seems to me people are voicing uneducated opinions. I did cheer in high school, I currently cheer in college and I work for an organization who teaches high schoolers about cheerleading. Female cheerleaders are not the sex driven whore's you all make them out to be. They are athletes who are demonstrating an amazing amount of skill, coordination, and talent that most of you who responded could never imagine. I don't know what dances or cheers the high schools have been performing, but I know as a fact that hip gyrations and pelvic thrusts are actually illegal. You won't find any competition squad anywhere, not just in Kansas, that will perform a pelvic thrust in a routine. That is because cheer organizations that hold competitions have made it illegal. Maybe if Kansas would catch up with the rest of the nation and let their high schoolers actually compete, and acknowledge what they do is an actual sport, then all these worried people can calm down. It is the closed minded people who have all responded to this question, that give cheerleading the awful sterotype it can not shake, no matter how far the sport has come. Maybe all of you who have put in your two cents should actually attend a cheerleading competition and see what it is all about. You would see it isn't about sexy girls in short skirts and tight shirts. And guess what??? GUYS CHEER TOO!!!! Maybe you all should do some research before formulating your opinions on a subject such as this.

kansas 9 years, 6 months ago

Bulbous one-eyed trouser mouse??!!!!

lol!! Oh my God!!

Simple Simon you made me laugh so hard I had Dr. Pepper coming out of my nose!!

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

"bulbous one-eyed trouser snake?"

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UAAAAPYYJQtXYjCaMHrdpyFyeL8Ujn62hP!DVVc3BQngJWKnPfyYMVrtJAg50tdPvjWoWLHjb7Sa9*AxhNom0p3n4VZ7uN0goOeBUTycG4h!!HyKpA4yh3SCGhcAcBoX/vash%20laughing.gif?dc=4675401830455813961

not sure if this'll work or not

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

yay!

At least, it worked on my computer

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

kansas-cheer: You must be new here. If all our opinions were informed, this wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting.

GreenEyedBlues 9 years, 6 months ago

As I understand it, and the way it was in my high school, there is the dance squad, and then there is the actual athletic cheerleaders who take the sport seriously as Kansas Cheer does.

The dance gals had a lot more costumes and could choose music freely without rules or athletic determination standing in their way. Some want to compete, others just wanna jiggle around for their friends and parents!

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

lonely_guy: wherever you are -- I owe you an apology.

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

Yah, but you know what they say about guys in kilts?

I think kansas_cheer got her spankies in a bunch because some of us (myself included) unfairly labelled cheerleaders as being somewhat less athletic than she/he suggests they are. I know its sporty and all but the girls I remember from highschool who were "on the squad" were not terribly worried about the athletic part of it. I'm not saying that all of 'em are like that but that was my own experience.

And men will make any female cliche into a sex fantasy I betcha. I mean I was a naughty nurse for Halloween. How many of those do you find in real life? Pure fantasy!

italianprincess 9 years, 6 months ago

Simple's post and Sue's post weigh the same to me. They are both talking about the same thing, but one gets removed and the other doesn't. The word " Trouser " must be worse then the words " Yogurt Slinger "

Hmmmmmmmm, makes you think someone is being a bit bias here.

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

I may skip my afternoon yogurt today. I don't know why but it seems less appealing now......

lunacydetector 9 years, 6 months ago

totally off subject......But

"Precious Doe" has a name.

Step dad killed her/cut her head off with hedge clippers (according to Precious Doe's mom). mom is under arrest for murder and step dad is under arrest for an unrelated charge.

Precious Doe's REAL name was Erica Michelle Maria Green. she was from oklahoma and was 3 years old when she was murdered.

the sick bastards will be extradicted to K.C. ASAP.

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

Thanks for that LD, it wasn't enough to read in the headlines the FIRST TIME!!!

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

kns: "Geez! Some people just need to lighten up a little before they decide to start shouting and whining about other people being full of stereotypes!"

This quote from a man who two paragraphs earlier decided that he knew my thoughts on a topic which I have never addressed in a post. Sounds like you may have stereotyped me.

lunacydetector 9 years, 6 months ago

sorry, dad kicked her in the head, didn't seek medical treatment because both parents had arrest warrants, baby died within a couple of days, then dad did the rest.

lunacydetector 9 years, 6 months ago

carmenilla, if you reread the JW article, it is screwed up.

just wanted to clarify. but if precious doe was 3 years younger you'd be okay with what happened.

ku_kris 9 years, 6 months ago

Yeah, Carmenilla, I too have lost my desire for yogurt all of a sudden! And to be honest, I don't think that I'll ever crave Jell-O brand white chocolate flavored pudding ever again either! Which is too bad, because up until just now that had been my favorite Jell-O pudding flavor!

Eeeew!

Thanks for grossing me out, Sunflower Sue!

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

You got that right o_m_b! While I found many posts very interesting, it does seem they are becoming too repetitive to read without dozing off. But that's me, they have a right to exhaust the topic to their heart's content. After yesterday boring seems restful somehow :)

I don't believe I can contribute anything fresh to either side of this "discussion." But you should jump back in the fray! You've done a pretty good job today.

Besides, I'm trying to keep a low profile -- lest my stalker returns. I've had a very busy day, don't have the patience needed for polite sparring and don't want to slip over to the dark side:)

italianprincess 9 years, 6 months ago

Sue works for someone related to the paper possibly. Maybe thats why her post wasn't deleted.

Switching to yogurt with any color but white now.

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

ld: Fox news seemed to have better information than KC or Lawrence news sources. I wasn't sure they could ever find out her identity. Good thing the Grandfather persisted until he had enough information to prove his fears.

Carmenilla 9 years, 6 months ago

LD, don't you have young children or something? How about this, instead of posting your typical gloom and doom why don't you go play with those kids of yours and be thankful that you have them and that they are safe and sound.

Thats my plan. Fun posts today everyone!

Centrist 9 years, 6 months ago

Parents aren't parents any more. Kids run up and down my street all day and night .. and all ages. No "parents" to be seen. From 1 to 16 years old. But they're "socialized" now, right? So it can't be harmful, yea? They'll grow up and be "well-adjusted". All they're learning about is how to get some "booty" and how to be a "pimp" or where to find guns and blowing away police officers with a "cap in the ass". What the hell are we really teaching this generation? And even the one before it (mine) and even the one before mine. I work with people who are more immature at the age of 50 than most 16 year olds. Well-adjusted means learning how to get your own way, it seems, without regard to anyone else. Gimme a break. Kids needs to be kids. School needs to be a school and nothing more. It's supposed to be a place of learning. If teachers have to be social workers too, then let's pay them some real money, first of all, then demand that only the best teachers for our tax dollars are employed. There should be school uniforms and metal detectors at every school until they're cleaned up. Kids can do what they want AFTER school and on weekends. Uh-oh .. no PARENTS around then, are there?

I like cheerleaders when I watch NFL, like any other red-blooded male, but I cringe every time I see high school girls acting like adults. They're NOT. It seems to me that "society" is leaning more and more towards paedophilia every day. It seems that "we" can't wait to put the "next big thing" into the spotlight before they're mature enough to handle everyday issues. "Society" couldn't wait til Lindsay Lohan turned 18, remember? It was celebrated in the press and in Hollywood, like a relief, that now everyone could perve at her LEGALLY.(Although I don't think she's anything special at ALL). "We" dress kids up, encourage more skin to show, treat them like adults when they're not. Is it any wonder that 13 year-olds want to have sex with adults, and some even want babies?? I'm disgusted with it all. So, again, I say NO to allowing "sexy" routines for cheerleaders. That's it. Cheers .. :)

BunE 9 years, 6 months ago

"but if precious doe was 3 years younger you'd be okay with what happened."

Real classy LD. Real classy. I suppose you want to drop the death penalty on the parents too.

lunacydetector 9 years, 6 months ago

BunE, thanks for recognizing my classiness for pointing out the hypocrisy of the left, AND i would rather have the parents rot in prison for life on devils island, than get the easy way out with a lethal injection.

GreenEyedBlues 9 years, 6 months ago

Ay ay ay. Won't someone please think of the cheerleaders?

GreenEyedBlues 9 years, 6 months ago

LD, do you honestly think God smiles down on you for saying things like that? Even Jesus had compassion for sinners, lepers, and homos.

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

"but if precious doe was 3 years younger you'd be okay with what happened"

Actually, 3 years earlier she would have been an infant, and very few people would say that it was okay.

Fangorn 9 years, 6 months ago

Holy Cow! I go away for a few hours and when I get back, what do I see?! Most posts than we've generated for a while, and quite a few of them deleted. Since there wasn't that much acrimonious bickering going on, it makes me wonder about the content of the missing posts. Did somebody spike the water supply? And I'm not sure I want to ask about some of the food references. Yikes! :)

jonas 9 years, 6 months ago

Fangorn: Most of the deleted posts were of two related topics. Young male cheerleader fantasies involving (cough) "sturdy desks," and references to "bulbous one-eyed trouser mouses."

Hopefully, you catch this before it gets deleted itself.

Fangorn 9 years, 6 months ago

jonas & O_bob: Thanks for filling me in. My curiousity has been (ahem!) satisfied.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 6 months ago

Well hugs n kisses, I got zapped too. (Really expected it might) Consider my mouth washed out well with soap. FYI, that description I got from a prime-time TV show. Now we are back to the cursed TV again! p.s. TOB, it was "slinger", not "spewer" and it gets my vote because it does not show prejudice towards size.

lunacydetector 9 years, 6 months ago

if kns or TOB thinks I suggested removal(s), forget it - because it wasn't me - i don't read even half the messages on here. i like to pop in from time to time and write. i know my views are conservative but i am in the majority with America. liberals are fun to pick on because of the convoluted logic displayed. i also think most liberals, especially in this town, are hate filled.

so if you want to write about someone's baloney poney, be my guest. i won't jump in on THAT conversation, nor will i suggest its removal. just because i'm conservative does not make me a prude.

Chris Bohling 9 years, 6 months ago

The cheerleaders/pommies at LHS are on average the most religious, conservative girls in the school and we (the liberal students) are generally the ones complaining about their attire. Just to set the record straight.

Ceallach 9 years, 6 months ago

Shish! I left the board at 5:00 with only simple simon deleted and comeback to both jt and sunflower sue being deleted.

kns: I am posting to clarify a big misunderstanding regarding my 11:57 post.

I was not taking a jab at you when I used the words "giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are a fairly normal guy" I was not insinuating that you are a perv. This is an anonymous board, we know little or nothing about other posters. I was trying to use you as an example of a man who could see sexually suggestive behavior and respond in a normal way. My gosh, kns, if anything it was a compliment. I compared your normal response to the abnormal response a sexual predator could have to the same stimulation. I said "don't ask me for a definition of normal" because I wanted to avoid people using the nothing is normal or abnormal circular argument to negate the point I was trying to make.

Then, wham! I am being added (repeatedly - by name) to jt's lengthy post on fantasies. Next you separate me as being the only one to stupid to know what you are discussing.

When I left the board at 5:00 I had decided to get out of the fray. I just checked back to see if things had settled down and there you were again! 5:02 posting such a inaccurate and totally unfair attack. If you reread my post and yours, and you still feel justified in the things you said to and about me -- then nothing else I say will make any difference.

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