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Is it fair for police to sit and wait for drivers to disobey temporary traffic signs?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on July 28, 2005

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Photo of Tiffany Clark

“I think that’s entrapment because they are temporary signs. They may have safety in mind, but it sounds like they’re trying to make a buck or two.”

Photo of Nathan Darling

“No, that is unnecessary and unwarranted. I would be incensed.”

Photo of Cassie Schmidt

“No. I definitely do not think that is fair. I think they need to use their time in other places.”

Photo of Kyle Gebhart

“Yeah. People still have to choose to break the law. It’s up to the individual to see and obey the temporary signs.”

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Comments

NorthLawrenceDude 9 years, 4 months ago

Here is a thought....since they are standing down there TRAPPING people, why don't they just DIRECT the traffic??? I guess that makes too MUCH sense huh? These tickets are bullcrap, the police should be down their assisting motorists, not causing more problems.

one who GOT one

thomgreen 9 years, 4 months ago

And what's with the lack of an interesting name today? No Richard Peterson like yesterday?

Richard Heckler 9 years, 4 months ago

The question is of a general nature when addressing a specific situation. In this case if multiple violations were occuring in a short period of time perhaps the officers should have been evaluauting the sign locations. Otherwise the question is entrapment.

Topside 9 years, 4 months ago

Extreme_makeover hit the nail on the head. I like to quote the worst basketball movie ever "Blue CHips" at a time like this and say..."It's all about G-D money!" I don't live in lawrence but we have these cops that just sit and stake out shcool zones (speeding fine is tripled in a school zone). Then summer comes and no school zones an POOF where'd all the police go? Hmmm...It's a mystery. Suddenly then on the first day of school there they are again.
They say it's for the kids but most of us are not that stupid. I bet anyone to sit next to a school zone crosswalk for a day, where I live, and I'll give you 1,000 bucks for every kid you see walking to school. I hate to say it but you'll be no richer by the end of the day. No one wants or lets their kids walk to school anymore. The media has everyone brainwasked that your kids WILL get kidnapped.

doc1 9 years, 4 months ago

Ive been through there. Anyone who cant read a sign deserves a ticket. Again the squishies in this town just blame the Police for issuing tickets to people who can't read street signs. There is NO reason to have Officer direct traffic. Road construction is a daily thing. NO matter where you go. Read the signs and obey them. If you cant handle the pressure then turn in your license. Because you shouldn't be operating a dangerous weapon.

Bill Chapman 9 years, 4 months ago

I think its' bad form to hand out tickets for violating and street sign that is not placed according to the standards made for posting traffic signs. On the other hand if cities everywhere started posting street/traffic signs in random locations, maybe - JUST MAYBE those idiots who drive while putting on make-up, blabbering on the cell phone, screaming at the kids, screaming at the other drivers, read the newspaper, or shave would have to concentrate on driving like they should.

      • nah never happen - they'd just run over everyone and thing in sight like they do now. Of course then we can bury them in so many tickets they can't AFFORD to drive those damn status symbol SUVs they like so much.

GreenEyedBlues 9 years, 4 months ago

Good morning, sunshines! Ditto what Extreme said. What a clever fellow.

And for the record, I'm an early riser, not a late sleeper.

neopolss 9 years, 4 months ago

I agree with NorthLawrenceDude that the first priority of the police should be to assist motorists, not wait for them to screw up. If they were staking out the spot, logic tells me that they were aware that there must be a problem there. Perhaps they should have helped to avoid the problem.

The priorities are really screwed up. It's more about bringing in some revenue than it is protecting the public safety.

kutwitch 9 years, 4 months ago

God forgive me for defending the inept Lawrence Police but I work downtown and you would have to be retarded to misunderstand those road closed signs. I personally found the "road closed" barriers to be very clear in their road closed message. I think it was high time the police started issuing stupidity tickets for people who can't follow simple instructions.

massst 9 years, 4 months ago

I think city needs some weekend money...Im sick of paying tickets,Insurance and high gas prices...There should not be any ticket for just a temporary signs..especially in LAWRENCE...............uhhhhhhh

thomgreen 9 years, 4 months ago

I just wonder how many of the younger, attractive females got tickets, or do they just let them off for driving around town inebriated, with their lights off and then running up on the curb when they get pulled over. "I've only had a couple of beers". My question is, why didn't the construction company get people standing out there directing people if they were complaining about almost getting hit. Wouldn't that have solved the whole problem?

visage 9 years, 4 months ago

I don't really think it's any different than police setting up speed traps. They watch for people who disobey the law and then give them a ticket for it.. that sounds fair enough. I'll be one of the first people to admit that I don't always drive the speed limit, but I understand that if I get pulled over, it's my own fault.

I do seriously question the city's judgement in placing all these traffic circles and "speed humps" or whatever they're called around town. What a senseless waste of money! The worst part is that the round-abouts are being placed where they aren't necessary.. ah, but I digress.

At any rate, I think it's fair enough for police to enforce the rules that are set IF the rules are CLEARLY STATED and marked so they are visible.

craigers 9 years, 4 months ago

I say give out more tickets! The police are taking care of dismissing the tickets that were wrongfully issued. The only reason why this is a problem is because people don't read signs very well and I agree with Dracul that if people would pay more attention we wouldn't have this problem. And to all of you who are mad because police caught you in a speed trap and gave you a ticket, get over it. Would you be mad if a camera at a store caught you shoplifting and you didn't know it was there or that they didn't bust you when it was gum and now that it is an MP3 player they do? I speed just like the rest of you, but when I get a ticket I accept it and move on. Don't be mad because you got busted. You were the one speeding or not obeying the other traffic signs, temporary or not.

twiggle 9 years, 4 months ago

Entrapment, by definition: A person is 'entrapped' when he is induced or persuaded by law enforcement officers or their agents to commit a crime that he had no previous intent to commit; and the law as a matter of policy forbids conviction in such a case.

These people were not "entrapped" according to this definition, they either on purpose or accidentally misinterpreted the posted traffic signs and the police were there to catch them, they were not induced or persuaded by the police to commit the traffic violation.

Obviously the police department took and are taking steps to rectify the situation vis a vis the signage and the over-abundance of ticketing, so I think they're being perfectly reasonable in their handling of the situation.

lunacydetector 9 years, 4 months ago

they're very sneaky. i like the speed limit sign out in the west 6th street construction zone past wakarusa. they placed it right before the road curves (where a lot of oncoming traffic crosses the double yellow because of the narrow bend). you'd have to have the eyes of a lizard to catch the oncoming traffic and the speed limit sign. the cops wait with lazer in hand at the top of the hill. i have seen them pull over countless people.

kshaff03 9 years, 4 months ago

I havn't seen the intersection, but couldn't they have just closed that direction of the street with a barrier?

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

Is it fair? How old is the person writing this question? Most people learn by the time they leave high school that "fair" has very little to do with anything legal.

extreme: roundabout -- good one!

craigers and others made some very good points about people whining when they get caught breaking the law. I have been down Mass several times since the construction started. The signs are/were not that hard to see if someone is paying attention to their driving and the road conditions. Just another example of irresponsibility on the part of the drivers. There are tall temporary fences, equipment and signs all over the place!

If the police had not been there and one of the darlings killed or injured a pedestrian while running the STOP sign -- well, you know very well what would happen -- everyone would be screaming about the police absense, making jokes about doughnut shops, and asserting that temporary signs in a congested area should have a police presence to insure the safety of citizens walking through the construction zone. As for having an officer direct traffic -- the STOP sign is an acceptable means of controlling traffic. With an officer sitting nearby in his/her car they are free to answer other calls when needed.

Ban whiners!

Liberty 9 years, 4 months ago

Jane,

That is a good point. Why do we need a license to drive. We do have a right of travel in the United States of America. I guess you have to travel for non commerce reasons and use a "car" instead of a "motor vehicle"???

Hong_Kong_Phooey 9 years, 4 months ago

Oh, Tiffany...poor girl. Life must be hard for her...

I would truly hate to think of Nathan being incensed. His little shiny dome gettin' all red and stuff...

Of course the whole basis for this question is ridiculous. We're not talking about playing a game here. "Um, excuse me, Mister Judge..I was confused by da' big signs and all da' twaffic. I wealized afto I dwove twu da' inta-section and heard da' cwunch dat' the woad weally was cwosed."

Your job(and mine) as a licensed motorist is to read the signs that are out and to FOLLOW WHAT THEY TELL YOU. This kind of relates back to the fireworks ban discussion we had. You can't pick and choose which ones you want to follow and which ones you don't.

neopolss 9 years, 4 months ago

indeed.

The biggest problem is the citation issue. I doubt many ignored the signs with criminal intent. That being the case, I find it odd that police were simply waiting in such a spot to make a few citation dollars. Somehow there was knowledge of a problem before the problem even began.

I haven't had too many good encounters with the police here in town. Most have been fairly citation happy, and I have had to fight a few in court. The worst was when a cop claimed I ran the stop sign at Louisiana and 31st. Somehow he thought he saw this from midway between Haskell and Lousiana travelling westbound on 31st. That's eagle eyes folks. What makes it funny to me is that I stopped, got out of the car, and was checking a fuse that had blown on my brake lights before I got back in and made the turn at the stop sign.

firecracker 9 years, 4 months ago

i would guess the majority (there have to be SOME exceptions) of the people "confused" by the signs are the same people that I watch 5 cars pass by while waiting for pedestrians to cross mid-block. Are the glaring yellow signs THAT hard to see and understand? Pay attention people.

monkeywrench1969 9 years, 4 months ago

I just renewed my license two months ago and took the "test" they send in the mail with your forms. It says you have to obey all traffic signs and signals whether they are permanant or temporary construction.

Additionally the reason why they are there is to reduce traffic in areas where they are working so they can get their work done in a safe environment (okay lets hear the I never see people working when I drive by...). You could not pay me enough to work in those areas with people driving through on cell phones or fiddling with the new high techDVD stereo Playstation combination recently installed after seeing the latest MTV Pimp my ride episode.

I would say Wildgen has less knowledge of the traffic laws and is making a political statment about height or maybe he should read his driver's license test info. I have noticed when you see positive for the police he is all over it talking how great they are. When it is negative he is against them. Flip flopper

Liberty 9 years, 4 months ago

This is for informational and entertainment purposes only.

These cases are listed in a form called "Judicial Notice / Demand for Rights" by an officer Jack McLamb that did some research into asserted Common Law rights. The cases are very interesting...

"The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege but a common and fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 337 Ill. 200, 169 NE 22, 66 ALR 834.

Ligare v. Chicago, 139 Ill. 46, 28 NE 934.
Boone v. Clark 214 SW 607; 25 AM JUR (1st) Highways, Sec 163.

"The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which a City may prohibit or permit at will, but a common right which he has under the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." Thompson v. Smith 154 SE 579.

"The right to travel is part of the Liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment." Kent v. Dulles 357 U.S. 116, 125.

"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule-making or legislation which would abrogate them." Miranda v. Arizona 384 U.S. 436, 491.

"The claim and exercise of a Constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." Miller v. U.S. 230 F 2d 486, 489.

"Our system of government, based upon the individuality and intelligence of the citizen, the state does not claim to control him, except as his conduct to others, leaving him the sole judge as to all that only affects himself." Mugler v. Kansas 123 U.S. 623, 659-60.

merrywidow033 9 years, 4 months ago

what i think is disgusting, is the lack of help the officers do for people sometimes... my parents saw a girl (15 years old) get HIT by a car on the evening of the 8th of july. (the car drove off after hitting her) my dad called 911 dispatch, and they said "well, gee, if she doesn't call herself, we won't send anyone out" while my mother had gone to find out if the girl was ok, telling her that my father was calling 911 and expecting someone to come out. not only did he tell 911 dispatch about the girl, but he also gave them the description of the car and tag number, hoping they would send someone looking for him. since 911 was not really any help, my mother proceeded to flag down a police officer, and the officer said "well, there isn't anything i can do if she doesn't call in herself".

um.. yeah, so if this girl is unconscious, she is supposed to call in herself? i guess the officers were too busy sitting in driver license check lanes 20 squad cars at a time. no one ever did check on the girl, and my parents don't know what happened after that (they waited around for 2 hours) but finally had to leave. they've been calling the city, calling state reps, and calling the supervisor staff of the dispatch office. the dispatcher has supposedly been put on suspension (? who knows if that's true ?)

sorry for the lengthy post. all i wanted to say was.. "oh, it's the end of the month. big surprise."

Staci Dark Simpson 9 years, 4 months ago

People pay attention!! If you are missing these signs you would obviously miss a small child or maybe even a pedestrian that is adult sized. I agree they should have put the signs up right, but part of your job as a driver is to pay attention to your surroundings. I also don't think the police should be there doing a stake out, but maybe their ticket quotas are low, it is the end of the month you know!!! Maybe the bucket O' severed foot left in the intersection would get people to pay attention.

visage 9 years, 4 months ago

I've only had one run-in with the Lawrence police department, and that was when my car died. Someone else called them to report it without my knowledge, and an officer came and sat with me while I waited for the tow truck. Nice guy, wish I remembered his name.. was five or so years ago.

Liberty 9 years, 4 months ago

It has usually been my experience that the officers are usually down to earth people, and will help you if they can like a good neighbor. But they are probably under pressure from their bosses to get revenue and do things that people find in very poor taste or unhelpful (that the officer would probably rather not do but because of his job, he/she is required to do it).

NorthLawrenceDude 9 years, 4 months ago

well, regardless of what is written here...it IS all about money. Did you know that if you get a speeding ticket in Lawrence, you can pay double to the prosecutor's office and get it dismissed? (reduced to non moving violation) Yes, you can. (call and ask them) If you get a 2nd ticket, you can do the same thing if you PAY TRIPPLE the fine amount. What kind of justice is that?? Again, it is all about money in this town.

monkeywrench1969 9 years, 4 months ago

Anyone driving down the road PAYING attention to the signs on the highways and elsewhere should note it is posted fines double in construction areas...

Personally I think if they posted the actual fines for speeding and other traffic infractions on billboards and permanant signs around town. We would see a huge decrease in tickets being given because everyone would know what would be coming out of their pocket ahead of time. I went to Pittsburgh several years ago and they posted the fines on billboards all over. I wasn't speeding...

But the bottom line is those getting caught are not paying attention or intentionally not following the laws so what is to say they would observe the fine billboards.

As far as the tickets being about money...the cops don't get a cut and if you ever attend a City Commision meeting it is quite clear they don't get a lot of money. The cop who lives down the street from me said the tickets go to the "general fund" to be despensed to all departments of the city. The other ting I thought was interesting was he said they don't like to be the bad guys but they are considered society's parents and who doesn't hate your parents at some point.

wichita_reader 9 years, 4 months ago

There must be some validity to the driver's complaints about improperly placed signs. I don't think the City Manager would make the public comments he did simply because he's a flip-flopper.

Like Tom_FooIery said, you can buy a diversion about anywhere, I suspect, not just Lawrence/Douglas Co.

I think a better way to get out of the speeding ticket and moving violation is to tell the City or County Prosecutor that you want a Frye Hearing to challenge the validity of the radar, laser, or lidar with which the officer clocked your speed, and that you're going to represent yourself. Most City and County attorneys are so overworked, they don't have the resources and will cop a plea with you down to a non-moving violation, like inattentive driving, or something like that. It will still cost you, but at least it's a non-moving violation.

wichita_reader 9 years, 4 months ago

monkeywrench1969: I see signs posted everywhere saying something like "Littering is punishable by a $50 to $500 fine," and there's still plenty of trash thrown out of car/truck/suv windows.

Jayhawk226 9 years, 4 months ago

The latest Lawrence PD move does sound rather shady; not a fan at all.

Perhaps even more sleazy happened just recently in Chicago. Thousands of vehicle owners, who struggled to find parking spots on a daily basis, awoke one morning to find $100+ parking tickets on their windshields AND a brand new parking meter plotted beside their car.

During the middle of the night, the City of Chicago planted such meters and Chicago's finest (which I do really love) decided to postdate their tickets.

Fortunately, a well-known Chicago attorney was a victim and all the tickets have now been "reversed."

Just one more etching in the ongoing saga of great Chicago corruptness.

dont_panic 9 years, 4 months ago

NorthLawrenceDude - Sorry to say it, but you can do that in most towns/cities/etc., in most counties, in most states .. just about anywhere in the U.S.A.

Is it right? Probably not. But it keeps your auto insurance premium in check .. non-moving violations usually won't effect them but moving violations definitely do.

Maybe, instead of btchng about the local police doing their job (pay attention to the signs, don't get the fine), we should be wondering, since insurance is required, why premiums are so high. Are insurance companies driven by revenue? You bet ya!

Sometimes backdoor fees (local revenue) are the only way to combat inflated insurance premiums.

Carmenilla 9 years, 4 months ago

I was pulled over a few months ago at that stop sign behind the gas stations on 9th and Iowa. You know that little curved street that shoots you onto 9th? Well, I rolled more than I stopped and a cruiser was waiting for me at the bottom of the hill. It was early in the morning and I was running late but I managed some civility and decorum. I was all smiles and sweetness and he thanked me for my kindness. He said that most of the people he had stopped that morning were total jerks. It was only 7:30 am!!! How many had he stopped? So he gave me my ticket and I jokingly said:

"Guess you gotta fill those end-of-the-month quotas, huh?"

He smiled and winked and said "We don't have any quotas. I don't know why you would think something like that. You have a good day, ma'am."

And than he winked again. Makes you wonder.....

As far as the construction signs go, PEOPLE DON'T PAY ATTENTION when driving!!! Are we surprised? Now they are mad because someone caught them not paying attention? Boo hoo. Take it on the chin and learn to think while your hands are on the dang wheel! I have to admit that driving is my biggest stresser. I don't know how many times I've almost been hit by some imbecile. It starts to get to you. People act like they are invincible behind the wheel. They have no sense of personal responsibility at all.They need a wake-up call. Hope its only a ticket and not a head-on collision.

end rant

Fangorn 9 years, 4 months ago

If you see the sign and choose to keep going, you deserve the ticket. If the sign was clearly visible, as the story suggests, that's a different matter. When making changes like this, even (perhaps especially) temporary ones, it's important to ensure this is very clearly communicated. I have not been downtown to see the signs in question, so I can't speak from experience, just from what I read in the article.

happyone 9 years, 4 months ago

Is what happened wrong, probably so. Could it have been handled differently, of course. Everyone in town knows that the construction has been going on all summer so the excuse I didn't see the sign is ludicrus, rediculous at best. Pay the ticket and next time pay attention. Since obviously a ROAD CLOSED sign isn't BIG enough to see! :)

happyone 9 years, 4 months ago

Oh wait a minute I was wrong its not a ROAD CLOSED sign Its a FREAKING BARACADE!!!

Fangorn 9 years, 4 months ago

Beatrice: Just reading through the rest of yesterday's posts. No, I've never claimed dutch-elm disease. Wouldn't that be for trees though, or am I missing something here? I thought it was a fungus.

beatrice 9 years, 4 months ago

Everyone seems to be in agreement that if the signs are there, they should be read and obeyed, and that the law-breakers get what they deserve if ticketed. So, if the city posts signs next 4th of July that read "No Fireworks" ...?

(I know, I know, I must now go sit on a roundabout for 15 minutes for my bad behavior here.)

Das_U and Ceallach: Have either of you ever read the book or seen the psuedo-documentary "Chariots of the Gods?" It is by Erich von Daniken, written in the late 1960s. It uses fake evidence to "prove" that aliens were here years ago, and states that space aliens directed the building of the pyramids and instructed ancient people in the arts. I don't know if this is the first time this theory was suggested, but it was a big seller back then and predates Stargate by a few decades.

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

Since a majority think it's all about money -- my money is on the list of persons receiving the tickets. I'll bet one or more of our "worthier - translated wealthier" citizens were among those ticketed. That kind of money talks louder in Lawrence than revenue from tickets.

Also, unless I missed the post, no one has discussed how many hundreds of other cars navigated the intersection safely and legally. No, a handful of whiners get tickets for not stopping and everything has to change!! Whichever local Daddy or Mamma Warbucks got a ticket did all other offenders a favor. Everyone's ticket is dismissed.

beatrice 9 years, 4 months ago

Fangorn = Treebeard = Ent, a race of ancient trees in the Lord of the Rings, correct? Just having fun with your log-on name. b

Topside 9 years, 4 months ago

Ceallach has a good point. People with money seem to get ticketed or fined more than complete broke bums. Sadly, police work has turn out to be more about getting ticket monies than actually solving crime. They should be reclassified under the IRS and become gov. employees. Maybe, cops have a different role in Lawrence, but in my experience most cops are the same...A--Holes!

Liberty 9 years, 4 months ago

Topside, I think that they are government employees. They work for the City of Lawrence corporation.

The President of the United States is an employee of the corporation of the United States, which works for the United States of America (real original government). That is why there are "voters" to vote the employees 'in the office of' President, Senator, or whatever (like electing board members to a corporation). In order to elect an actual President or Rep./Senator, you would have to be an "elector". We have not elected a Senator or President for over 140 years now (post civil war) because there are no "electors" any more.

Carmenilla 9 years, 4 months ago

What do those "ditzy" KU students expect? Maybe they expect that men can control themselves. Or do we just blame the victim for "not knowing any better". Sorry to have to pick on that OTTR but blaming women for getting raped is half the reason rape is still so common.

Confrontation 9 years, 4 months ago

Anyone else not ready for the KU students to come back and make the driving situation even more dangerous?

"I was, uh, like totally driving to find a parking space so I could buy a like totally awesome outfit from Abercrombie. I was, uh, like totally talking to Heather on my cell, and I like, uh, totally didn't see signs and construction and stuff. Some police officer like totally turned on his light and sirens behind me, and I like almost dropped my cell. I totally got off the phone with Heather and checked my hair in the mirror. I got a totally huge ticket and now I cannot buy the $100 t-shirt I wanted until my next month's allowance! Police totally suck!"

raven 9 years, 4 months ago

I think it is fair and that people should look at the signs and make sure that they are obeying the laws. However, I also think there is a lot of serious crime out there and I wish the police would spend more time concentrating on that then sitting waiting for people to ignore traffic signs or shooting radar.

As far as diversion on your tickets, it is probably cheaper to just pay the ticket and if you insurance company finds out then pay the extra. Some policies-your premium won't even go up-as long as it is not a DUI.

Confrontation 9 years, 4 months ago

Carmenilla: Thanks for reminding some fools that sick men are to blame, not the women!

Topside 9 years, 4 months ago

Liberty- WHat??? Fed gov. and City employees are still a little different. But, they do all suck.

Off2daright-Sorry about all the molesters out there in Lawrence. I don't live there so I don't know aobu them. WHen I was a kid lots of us walked to school. Now...Nobody unless they live across the street literally.

Fangorn 9 years, 4 months ago

Beatrice: The loud popping sound you just heard was me pulling my head out of my rear end! I get it now. I've used this screenname for so long (here and in other venues) that I'm not always mindful of its origin. btw, that was funny!

NorthLawrenceDude 9 years, 4 months ago

I went downtown on lunch. The place is packed with people because of the nice weather. Plus, NOT A COP IN SIGHT. All it takes is for someone to b__tch, and they pull them all to a different part of town. I still say it was money and bullcrap yesterday, and today their LACK of being down there is POLITICAL. Get a clue people.

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

beatrice: I do remember the book and vaguely it's content, long time ago, I think those memory cells have been replaced by something else. Shows you that I am totally into recycling :)

GreenEyedBlues 9 years, 4 months ago

Oh my God, Confrontation really does have a huge problem with students! What's the deal with that? Did you not NOTICE the huge sprawling campus when you moved here?

Nobody talks like that! This isn't 90210. You're killin' me, smalls.

Jayhawk226 9 years, 4 months ago

I guess following offtotheright's logic, I should no longer feel bad for a person that is driving after 2am and gets killed by a drunk driver.

I mean duh, get off the road because the creeps are out raping on the streets and the drunks are out driving on the road.

Common sense dead victim's of drunken driving. Every heard of it??? Sheesh!!!

monkeywrench1969 9 years, 4 months ago

Wichita: Litter tickets compared to traffic tickets I think more people are written traffic tickets becasue I can't drive a block or two without seeing someone pulled over.

Has anyone hear maybe given thought someone got ticked about the illegal traffic through the construction area and complained so the police were required to do something.

I don't know about you but I recall quite a few cases in the news recently where the Police were solving or working on Murders, rapes, robberies and other crimes.

Hugh_G_Rection 9 years, 4 months ago

I certainly think it's fair for police to sit in highway construction zones and nail speeders! Lives are at stake in that situation. But in this situation, it seems silly for police officers to do what they did. As someone else said earlier....why not have that same ticket-writing cop just direct traffic??---Yeah, I know, that makes too much sense! And as we all know.....directing traffic doesn't generate nearly as much income for the city of Lawrence as writing a whole lot of $102 tickets does!!

italianprincess 9 years, 4 months ago

I got one for all of you here.......

Driving out of the Checkers parking lot last weekend and what do I see.......

A lady with her dog in her lap, chatting on her D@M& cell phone and trying to pull in with one hand. Her dog was in her lap and she actually had to reach around the dog to turn her wheel.

I love dogs, but GEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ people with dogs. Don't let them drive your cars for you while you chat on the phone. One its dangerous and second its just PLAIN STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!

As far as the question of the day here.......Follow the traffic laws and you won't have a reason to get pulled over. Don't speed, don't switch lanes with out your blinkers on ( you car came with them ) don't give them a reason to pull you over even if they are just sitting there waiting.

I remember driving down Mass street one day and noticed the police actually pulling people over by standing in the street with a radar. I had never seen that before in my life even drove by again. Kind of blew me away and never knew they could do that, but they were pulling people over left and right.

What a trip!!!!!!

Jayhawk226 9 years, 4 months ago

I actually do agree with you that people need to exercise great common sense in this world...I'm such a defensive, cautious person as is and don't trust anybody. Sad really.

I just didn't know if it was fair to call a rape victim ignorant and senseless because of the crime. It's easy for us to say how foolish they were for being victimized, or how too crafty and cunning the aggressors really are.

Not sure which is more scary really...

ms_canada 9 years, 4 months ago

OMB - the story is out of Yukon Territory which is in Canada. The story from Edmonton was from the U.of A. biology prof. who tested the hair. I think the spotters must have got into too many fermented wild blueberries or something. Only in Canada you say!! Seriously, Yukon is gorgeous, I visited a cousin in Whitehorse, the capital city about 3 years ago and was overwhelmed by the beauty of the landscape.

ms_canada 9 years, 4 months ago

Now, about temporary signs, my daughter is in Calif. visiting my sister who loaned her her brand new volkswagon convertible to drive to Palm Springs. Risky business, I say. anyway, returning to San Diego she had specific instructions to take the off ramp no. 17. All of a sudden she comes upon off ramp no. 18. Where the heck was 17? anyway, she got hopelessly lost and was in tears and nearly got creamed in the new convertible. There was construction on the ramp and they removed the sign, not the access, just the sign. Nice, real nice. Poor Diane. Called me when she got to sis's crying.

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

OTTR, Jayhawk226: People need to be more aware of the safety (or lack thereof) factor in Lawrence. We send that message constantly around campus. Yet, as OTTR says, again and again we read about assaults. At what point do we as women start taking responsibility for our well being? Whether we like it or not, when a given area is known for it's high rate of crime against women, and you are a woman -- it is stupid to put yourself in harm's way by deciding to walk alone in that area. Ignorance would suggest lack of knowledge -- stupid says it best. The #2 definition for stupid is "Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes."

Jayhawk226 9 years, 4 months ago

Fair enough...I appreciate your point very much so.

Reader 9 years, 4 months ago

You All Know, With The Police Issuing Tickets The Other Day Is Just Another Fine Example Of How The "Hemorhoids" Pop Out Of The "Anal Walls" Of Downtown. And "The Revenue" Is "The Blood" Their Squeezing Out, (Pianfull, But It Hurts) And For All Those Who Make The "U-Turns" Are Just Those "Gaseous" Feelings You Get, And Can Do Nothing About! And When You Get To The End, It's Just "One Big Cluster F*_K"! And With The Right Amount Of Ointment, Its Calms Then Goes Away. For Awhile?

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

I have worked at KU since 1982. What is heartbreaking is that with each new wave of young women the lesson has to be taught again (and is usually reinforced by new victims of an old problem).

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

Ceallach, on your post:

Yet, as OTTR says, again and again we read about assaults. At what point do we as women start taking responsibility for our well being?

Never. If a man/woman is attacked it's the attacker's fault. Period.

Are we actually considering sending out the message that attackers are somehow less at fault as long as they pick easy targets?

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

By the way, It's nice see everyone after my LJW week-or-so hiatus :)

happyone 9 years, 4 months ago

Wow what a digression.

If someone (male or female) is out walking around at 3am they're not being very smart. They are putting themselves at risk. That being said, if someone is attacked male or female it is the perps fault not the victim. HOWEVER the victim would not have become such if they had used a little common sense!!

happyone 9 years, 4 months ago

Hey Linux did you have a good vacation?

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

Thanx, OMB. Unfortunately, no. It's finals week for summer classes, so I've been busy doing yuckie school work.

Harry_Manback 9 years, 4 months ago

I am an attractive 21 year old female KU student, and let me tell you that the Lawrence police have not spared me any traffic tickets. I had no tickets when I moved here 2 years ago, but now I've managed to rack up 3.

Yes, there are a lot of sheltered young girls who come to KU, and think it's ok to walk the streets alone at 3 a.m., or go home with strange men from the bar. I think parents need to tell their kids to be more careful when they go to college.

Personally, I think the worst problem about driving in Lawrence is the driving on-campus. I swear I'm going to either run someone over, or get run over myself someday!

Reader 9 years, 4 months ago

That's, Mister_Joe! When I Feel The Need, I Post. I Always Wondered Though, Why Is It they Can Mow, Prune, And Maintain The "Lawrence Visitor's Center". But they Can "NEVER" Sweep Off The Side Walk Right At The Corner? It Always Looks Like $h*t. Even, If They Swepted Into The Street, It Might Smooth Out That Intersection, Just A Little Bit, Don't You Think? (NOT!) Just Another Fine Example Of "Where The Buck Stops"!

Carmenilla 9 years, 4 months ago

Ceallach I am surprised and dismayed by your callous attitude towards these rape victims. Where is your anger for the rapists? Where is your frustration that women are still victimized in this "civilized" society. Did you know that many victims are assaulted by someone they know? I agree that common sense is an integrel part of getting thru life but that doesn't excuse the continued violence against women. I'm only trying to point out that blaming the victim for being "stupid" is like giving a free pass to the rapist. The problem lies deeper than "she should've known better". It makes me sad to see the condemnation of victims. Do you feel that women in abusive relationships should just "magically" get some common sense and get out? Maybe if you had worked with victims of abuse (as I have) you would see that blaming the victim is a huge part of the problem.

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

linux_chick: Sympathy for rapists? That has never been part of any message I have posted here or anywhere else. I am a woman and the mother of three daughters, you will have a very difficult time pegging me as sympathetic to a rapist or any other criminal. Fact: predators ALWAYS attack the easy targets first. If someone is raped, it is the rapist's fault. If someone, knowing there are rapists in this world/city, place themselves in the rapists hunting ground and hope they will not be targeted, they are stupid! Knowing the rapist is at fault does not lessen the stupidity of their decision. We all pay the consequences of making stupid decisions, however, in the case of rape, the consequences are quite often devastating to the victim for many years.

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

OTTR: I take it back, then.

If we are assigning zero responsibility for the victims of an assault, then I misunderstood some above posts and am in agreement with you and Ceallach.

It is good for people to exercise good judgement to try to avoid an unfortunate situation. If they don't, the blame falls 100% on the attacker... for making the choice to commit the crime.

Happy: sorry, using "hiatus" was probably too optimistic. I just meant I didn't have time to keep up with you guys on the board, so I took a break.

happyone 9 years, 4 months ago

Linux hope you(r) did/doing well on your finals at any rate :)

VERY WELL PUT Ceallach

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

Agreed, for the most part Ceallach.

It would be nice if more people used common sense to avoid problems.

I do not consider rape the consequence of a dumb decision. Rape is the consequence of the attacker's decision and the blame should fall there accordingly, in my opinion.

As a woman, I'm glad you are being conscientious about your safety and (as it sounds) informing your daughters as well. This will hopefully help keep them (and you) safe a great deal.

I hope you can understand that I am very nervous about even flirting with any blame to the victim at all. I believe rape to be an epidemic. What I mean is this: making women more informed is good. But this will only help prevent rape from happening to these informed individuals making sound judgement calls... so that the attacker can move on to someone else.

I think we should be trying help lower the frequency of rape, not who is attacked.

For this reason, I hope we're all focusing on the attackers... getting them behind bars, educating them, etc. Or else, they will just move on to someone else with less street smarts. And this is a shame.

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

TF: Was I jumping down someone's throat? I didn't mean any offense to Ceallach, except that I disagreed with her post.

Ceallach, if I crossed the line, I was unaware. I meant to offer a dissenting point of view so we could challenge each other.

raven 9 years, 4 months ago

Linux: Agreed. Sadly though it can happen to anyone-even those women with the most street smarts. As Carm said above most of the time it is someone you know. A close friend, etc. someone you completely trust to be alone with-that is the saddest part of all.

Carmenilla 9 years, 4 months ago

Many women are attacked by someone they know. How do they prevent and have "common sense" in those situations?

I was not meaning to jump down anyone's throats, esp. not Ceallach who is always cool to me. There is still alot of blame placed on rape victims and women in violent relationships. Am I a d@mn feminist just because I am sickened by the crap women face everyday? Am I a d@mn feminist because the thought of 1 in 4 women being a victim of sexual assault is an actual REALITY? I must be a d@mn feminist because I think that men with nonchalant attitudes towards rape are the one of the main reasons rape is so prevelant and why victims are scared to go to the police.

I must be a d@mn feminist than...Its a dirty word like liberal and rabbit.

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

Carmenilla: We are now mixing apples and oranges. The previous posts were in reference to stranger rapes on campus and around town, not date/aquaintance rapes or domestic violence. Although they are all equally horrible.

I am far from calloused regarding this subject. I am heart sick about all the young women I too have seen that were victimized on or around the campus. Careless decisions that provide easy targets for criminals do nothing to slow the increasing number of attacks.

For the purpose of this conversation, we are talking about women, not children. It is my opinion that women need to take necessary precautions to lessen the probability that they will become a victim. Not because criminals are faultless, but to give themselves the best possible chance to avoid being a victim. Tragically even with all the precautions we are never completely safe from predators. My point is that as women, we must stop making decisions that make an attack more likely and start making decisions that make it less likely.

If I still have been unable to express myself without sounding callous and (God forbid) sympathetic to rapists -- I'll have to give up trying.

Carmenilla 9 years, 4 months ago

No I get it Ceallach and you're right. They are apples and oranges in that sense. But victimization happens even if you are careful and smart. That is the sad truth if our society and many other societies out there. Maybe I was overreacting because there have been some very lighthearted comments on here about rape. I found it to be in exceedingly poor taste and I took offense to OTTR's tone in his post earlier because of a path once taken on here. Rape is not funny or an easily called "blame-game" when it comes to the victim's role in the assault. Ceallach you DON'T sound sympathetic to them, don't worry.

happyone 9 years, 4 months ago

Hugs most of the guys that post here on a regular basis are not the pigs you have made them out to be!! You posted -- Do you see how some of the male posters on this board operate? They bully and make fun of any strong woman who happens to have an opinion of her own that they don't happen to agree with. And if they happen to know what you look like, and if they think you are attractive-looking, then they don't care what you think! They only care about hitting on you with suggestive words and comments, like OMB did in his post! I'll tell you, it's soooo tough for any of us gals to be taken seriously around here!

That is a bunch of BS

And yes Hugs I am a woman and the guys on here have stuck up for my side many times BEFORE they knew I was female and have continued to do so since!

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

Tom: thanks for the words of support -- however, for clarification, I am a woman, I'm just tall :)

Ladies, ladies, ladies! I can assure you there was a time when feminist had not evolved into a dirty word. It meant women wanting equal pay and equal consideration (pretty radical huh?). Chances are my bras were burned before many of you were born :)

But this is now, we don't need and should not allow ourselves to be labeled. Should we be called feminists because we defend or promote women's issues, or women doing what women understand best. I just don't want to trade being told how to be and what to do by a group of men -- for being told how to be and what to do by a group of women:)

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

hugs: you're probably right that women don't get the respect they deserve (as a girl studying Computer Science, believe me I'm aquainted with where chicks fall on the totem pole, at least initially, without proving themselves first).

Keep trying. Post and say intelligent things. You can help make things better for all of us.

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

What??? Men are more visual than women and an attractive photo may engender a different response from them!!

Who knew? :):):)

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

Feminism is just the belief in equality between the sexes. Men can be feminists, too (my male TA this semester openly admits to being a feminist).

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feminism

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

We have some nice guys on this board. If all else fails, we can carry on our own discussion and ignore them until the testosterone surges subside.

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

Here's some interesting reading about the kind of feminists I think this board is talking about:

Bust out the kleenex, because I was holding my stomach reading this one.

(LC cringes hoping there's no Lesbian Separatists on the board)

happyone 9 years, 4 months ago

Obviously I ruffled some of h_and_k feathers but hey If you're going to dish it out then be able to take it. I grew up with brothers If you want to win the fight have Intelligent reasons and proof of what you're saying or yes they will "pick on you" just like a scab!

Sorry Ladies but that attitude gets my temper!

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

happy: I used to comment on this board under a male pseudonym and actually changed to a female one when I read some "female" posters commenting on discrimination on the board.

I found there to be quite a difference when I first posted under linux_chick. It's subsided over time, but I think there is merit to discrimination claims whether people are aware of it or not.

That said, I think the posters on this board are great... and you better be careful before your posts get removed. They've already started w/ TF. ;)

happyone 9 years, 4 months ago

Yes linux we have had this discussion a while back with one of the male posters I remember and like you said earlier leave intelligent responses and they subside

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

Are you still mad, happy?

Go knock your brothers around for a while until you feel better.

I'm not the only one on this board guilty of beating a dead horse.

happyone 9 years, 4 months ago

Thank you Guys thats the way I looked at it too!

If being able to understand how guys think makes me "one of the guys" then I guess I am.

Have a good night guys Its time to make dinner so I can watch SMACKDOWN

linux_chick 9 years, 4 months ago

TF: treating people different is not a bad thing. I should have said "with less respect."

I was probably being too PC, but this board seems touchy today.

happyone 9 years, 4 months ago

No linux not mad at you just h_and_k and her stupidity

simple_simon 9 years, 4 months ago

Oh, don't worry about H&K! I'd be willing to bet that her problem has a lot to do with not having had any....ahem....."meat and (two) potatoes" in quite some time! You know what I mean? She's just frustrated! Ignore her!

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

Oh good! While I was driving home the board slipped into silly mode. (and not a moment too soon) I doubt if any of our female posters really want to be treated as if they were men, ewwwwww. I know I don't want to be treated as if we are women, which is to say --- better .

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

Messed up the last line (left out the all important I) I know I don't, I want to be treated as if . . well, you know the rest. Another post ruined by premature clicking.

blueblood 9 years, 4 months ago

whoever says this is "entrapment" obviously has no idea what that word means. just because members of the road crew complained to police and asked the police to enforce the violations in that area, that is not entrapment. i don't think there were any officers out there in disguise telling people to turn right around the barriers that had a no right turn sign, that would be entrapment. and as for directing traffic instead of stopping violators; a) that is not the police dept's job, that would be staffed by the construction company; and b) while the officers are down there stopping violators, their status is that they can still be called to other calls (such as people who need to speak with an officer to complain about their neighbor's kids, etc)---if they were stuck directing traffic, they would not be able to respond to emergencies, etc. But of course it's always the police's fault, or mommy's fault or society's fault for whatever our mistakes are, it certainly couldn't be OUR fault. Everyone needs to grow up and use common sense.

kansas 9 years, 4 months ago

You mean "twig and berries", don't you, Simon? :P! Sorry, Simon! But you left yourself wide-open for that one!

Linux Chick, I have to ask you something about an earlier post of yours. Did I read you right? You were a male poster before you became a female poster? Why did you pretend to be a male poster? And you became a female poster because why? I'm just curious.

beatrice 9 years, 4 months ago

H_K: Respect isn't something that you can be given, it must be earned.

I feel very confident that people on this board have not attacked me for being a "chick." Rather, when attacked it has been for being liberal, opinionated, sarcastic, and for being right about almost everything. I like the challenges and debates and mud slinging, otherwise I wouldn't come around. I may not be able to beat up a lot of men physically, but I will gladly challenge men and/or women to a game of word-play.

But never have I felt descriminated against or bullied because of my gender. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but with words I can cut you down to size," should be your motto.

simple_simon: "meat and potatoes"? I'll bet you play with your food, don't you? (See how it is done, H_K?)

gwilliamson 9 years, 4 months ago

Since my picture appeared in today's paper without my permission, I felt the urge to comment on this subject.

First of all, I was stopped by Officer Russell for driving around a Road Closed sign on 7th Street and not for making a wrong turn. Did I know it was wrong to drive around the sign, of course I did, but I was trying to get to Borders. Officer Russell was very professional and courteous. He explained why he was giving me a ticket for driving around the barricade. I accept my punishment and do not question why the police was there.

While I was stopped, another car was pulled over by another officer. This lady ranted and raved about the officer giving her a ticket and not directing traffic around the construction zone. The officer told her the signs were placed in the intersection for that same reason. I agree. Why would I want to pay a police officer to stand in the middle of an intersection directing traffic when I can have a construction crew place signs directing the flow of traffic. Reading some of these posts gave me the opinion a lot of you take no responsibility for your own actions and place blame on the authorities.

Now to the LJWorld photographer worm who was hiding behind the bushes in the alley taking my picture. When you asked me for my name, I declined because I despise your news reporting. It didn't surprise me at all that you chose to print my picture in the paper without my permission anyway. Typical Journal World.....

Ceallach 9 years, 4 months ago

gwilliamson: Thank you for taking the time to post and make the board aware of the facts from a far better perspective than most. I respect your opinion about people not taking responsibility for their actions (because it happens to agree with mine:)

Sometimes over reacting and walking the edge of inappropriate posting becomes a game here. Mostly though it is all done in fun after we have exhausted a given topic or to provide comic relief (you people know who you are) when things are getting too intense between posters.

Now that you are signed in with LJW come back and let us hear your opinion on the daily topic or whatever topic the day has morphed into. You sound very nearly sane, On the Street board could benefit from that.

warhawk_writer11 9 years, 4 months ago

Sounds to me like the big brother conspiracy just waiting for you as the driver to screw up behind the wheel.

~big brother is watching...~

space_rabbit_kerosene 9 years, 4 months ago

shouldn't the police be worrying about legitimately dangerous people. forget the traffic signs... go out and nab all those marijuana addicted dirt bags. who cares if someone runs a red light from time to time

kylezazu 8 years, 4 months ago

i dont know if any one still reads this post but get this i live in ohio the otehr day i was driving and i followed a cop away from one road block cause i couldnt figure out how to get to my field where i play baseball. Thinking the cop was going in the same dirrection that i was i follwed her. We came out onto a larger road and the cop turned right i followed her she stopped her car (infront of me and turned on her lights and got out. She walked over screaming at me and i coudlnt figure out why appearently down the street away form the street i turned out on there was a horribly placed road closed sign, 2 more vehicles did the same thing. only one of them got tickets cause the one right behind me was the police chief in an unmarked vehicle. It was total entrapment, the car that got a ticket got his waved cause an hour later the street sign was taken down completely, but because im 16 mine was unwavealbe and i now have to go to court and plead true or untrue, any one else think this is total bull crap, then because the police chief and my dad dont get along the chief lied to me and tried to get me arrested about my court date.

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