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Should the city choose a different location to build the new public library or rebuild at the current site?

Asked at Seventh and Vermont on December 12, 2005

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Photo of Philip Kimball

“Wherever they build it, they should use a local architect and local contractors.”

Photo of Phyllis Pitzer

“The library has always worked for me where it is. I’m happy with it here.”

Photo of Megan Embers

“I enjoy this location because it’s close to downtown. It’s in a good, accessible location.”

Photo of Bob Steinlage

“I think it would be all right to rebuild this one if they can expand the parking area.”

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Comments

Richard Heckler 9 years, 8 months ago

Why relocate the new library?

  1. It is the most practical approach
  2. Avoids the expense of relocating the senior center and fire department
  3. Placing it at 9th and New Hampshire makes the library an ideal companion to the Arts Center
  4. Avoids the inconvenience created during construction activity
  5. Avoids the cost of rent should library need to move during construction
  6. Current location simply is not large enough no matter which scenario is chosen
  7. Expanding the parking garage at 9th and New Hampshire provides enough parking for both the Art Center and the library. Generally speaking increases use of this parking garage
  8. Would likely not increase cost of construction as retrofitting is expensive
  9. City could expand offices to the former library location
  10. A two or three story building would be a nice fit with existing new structures
  11. Would be very convenient to parents and/or children who need a place to go during class or rehearsal breaks at the art center.
  12. USD 497 could use old library space for a potion of their VO-TECH system like the world of computers.
  13. The old library would be a perfect fit for a bank or a health clinic.

The vacant lots at 9th and New Hampshire location seem the most practical because they are exactly that... vacant.

Kam_Fong_as_Chin_Ho 9 years, 8 months ago

Build it as an add-on to the new homeless shelter being constructed in East Lawrence. That way, the homeless won't need to walk very far in order to sleep all day in the local library.

neopolss 9 years, 8 months ago

I like 9th and NH also.

I wish the Lawrence library had a larger geneology section. The one at Wichita puts it to shame.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 8 months ago

Merril and Neo, Library: I think 9th and NH is sited for the new location of the Saturday Farmer's Market.

Sweetpea, I wanted to comment on something you posted late last night. I wanted to pat you and your family on the back for donating to those less fortunate at Christmastime. We also "adopt a family" and it is a great way to make this time of year really special. Last year my oldest daughter dipped into her own piggy bank to get her "boy" something really awesome (she was already over budget but it meant that much to her). I was so proud of her that I literally cried in Target (OK, a little embarrassing).
Sweetpea, Thanks for being a caring person and also for teaching compassion to your children.

badger 9 years, 8 months ago

I think the Riverfront Mall is a supremely bad idea. It's difficult to pull into that parking lot (or out of it, if traffic is busy), and the intersection is kind of convoluted. I would very much not like to see a lot of children navigating that intersection on a regular basis. It wouldn't become a 'centerpiece for downtown' any more than the mall did or the hotel is. The 'centerpiece for downtown' is, well, downtown.

The 800 block of Pennysylvania seems an odd locale for it, as well. It's a bit off the beaten track, and I worry that the streets might be in not-great shape for handling library traffic. Some parts of Penn are a little dicey.

Myself, I like the 11th and Mass option or the 9th and New Hampshire option, but for some reason 11th and Mass has more appeal to me even though it represents a higher cost outlay. It may be that I'd be afraid that as a 'companion' to the Arts Center it would have similar architecture, and I've never really appreciated that style.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 8 months ago

The Riverfront Mall is a loser due to exit and entering,not enough parking etc etc. Probaly why it do not succeed as a commercial venture. This would be a taxpayer bail out.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 8 months ago

The Farmers Market I believe is going into the 800 block of New Hampshire because the city requested a mid block crosswalk approval for that area and the Farmers Market was mentioned as one reason. A mid block crosswalk application was approved that same evening in the 700 block. I would say that New Hampshire is being slowed down a bit.

badger 9 years, 8 months ago

omb -

You mean there's no Dickens and Browning and Steinbeck and so forth?

That's utterly insane.

shannon 9 years, 8 months ago

Wherever it goes I hope they get someone in to discuss what a modern library should be, like Topeka's for instance. I drive there for all my library needs because this one has such poor selection in nearly every area. Outdated fiction in particular.

badger 9 years, 8 months ago

omb-

I'm going to go curl up in a little ball now.

Were it not for public libraries and their 'old' books, I would never have found Dorothy L. Sayers, Ian Fleming, and Rex Stout, not to mention Marlowe, Austen, Eliot (T.S AND George), and Dostoevsky. None of those were taught to me in high school English, and they're brilliant and necessary things.

Those horrid Olson people write BOOKS? Are the books as bad as their acting and publicity? If so, I may actually become an advocate of book-burning.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 8 months ago

I'm proud to say that my 9 and 11 year old girls have no idea who the Olsen twins are. But they do read lots of books. Over that awful couple of snow days they took it upon themselves to drag out all of my Shel Silverstein and see how many of his poems they could memorize. That was a hoot! They started to put them to music. Nothing like hearing a poem sung 5000 times!

Merrill, you are right! Sat. Farmers Mkt is going between 8th and 9th street between NH and RI.

Ceallach 9 years, 8 months ago

It's extremely difficult to concentrate on writing a book when you have to "purge" several times a day to maintain the starving waif look-- give them a break!

I am definitely against moving the library to the mall!! Merrill spoke true, it would be just another taxpayer buyout. I also agree with Philip Kimball, the city should use local architects and contractors.

bearded_gnome 9 years, 8 months ago

badger: you described parts of PA as "dicey," please elaborate...are you describing the condition of the street or the condition of the human environment on it?

bearded_gnome 9 years, 8 months ago

shannon complained about "outdated fiction."

outdated fiction is the best fiction! most of what is written and published these days is drivvel [insert old fahrt sound effect]. the mysteries are generally pretty thin except for two authors. [one being bill pronzini and the other is the LHS grad who writes the v.i. warJiovixky--spelling bad I know!].

patrick o'brian died most of a decade ago.
cornwell [bernard] and jeff shaara are writing wonderful historical fiction.

but the state of current fiction generally SUCKS!

build the library...hmmm...9th and nh, I agree sounds like a nice place indeed!
or, how about 214 w. tenth and you could tear down another structure which is causing all kinds of trouble for all of downtown!

Richard Heckler 9 years, 8 months ago

The trees and rough terrain were far more beautiful than the river front mall has ever been.

bearded_gnome 9 years, 8 months ago

ms_canada: hope you enjoy roast with a crust. you can do somewhat similar crust for pork roasts too...less pepper and maybe sage in it.

remember, never go light on garlic!
garlic is your friend!

italianprincess 9 years, 8 months ago

I like the library right where it is. They do need to have a much larger parking lot though and for sure in the summer. The people who attend the outdoor pool use the library parking lot so that leaves no room to park for us who use the library.

Maybe the city can figure out how to expand the library in some other way. Who knows, but I do like the library that is here now and I go every weekend with my youngest son.

badger 9 years, 8 months ago

b_g -

I was speaking of the street condition itself. The streets in the area tend to be a little spotty. For current use, it seems like they're generally OK if a little on the lumpy side, but I really don't know if the area could handle the increase in both car and pedestrian traffic that a library would mean - not just for Penn itself, but also for the surrounding streets. I think that any necessary street and sidewalk repairs to the general area should be taken into account when discussing the cost of that option.

One of the things that is nice about Lawrence as a community is that people there use their library and appreciate having one. I think that the use and popularity of the library needs to be taken into account when planning, and they don't just need to find a place to tuck the appropriate amount of square footage, but also a place where it won't snarl traffic, be inaccessible to pedestrians, or be surrounded by parking lots and buildings. One of the great things about the current library is that it's got this great park right next to it, and right after you checked out your books, you could go sit and read them in the train park. Any plan now should incorporate some form of greenspace nearby - which is another reason I like the 11th and Mass option, because it's right by South Park.

Thank you for the pancakes. I have this confusion that occurs when my 'books are good on principle' reflex comes up against my, 'those people can't possibly have anything intelligent to say' headspace. I believe that everyone should be able to say what's in her head, but for the Olson (Olsen? I just don't know!) creatures, that really doesn't seem like it would amount to much more than a brief pamphlet.

trinity 9 years, 8 months ago

bearded gnome-ness; i think you have knowledge how to make a peppery "crusty" type roast??? o please, would you email the how-to to me??? (trying to save this from becoming a cooking thread, lol)

on the library? kinda like the location as is...expand expand expand!

trinity 9 years, 8 months ago

good LORD e_m, you got removed for THAT??

holy schmoly...what'd you ever do to pi$$ off the ljw message board gods??

lunacydetector 9 years, 8 months ago

yes, the city should build a library in western lawrence, then renovate the existing library. it's not smart building a huge library downtown, alienating the residents who live outside of the downtown area - especially when the majority of the taxes are generated by people who live in the western part of town. it's not fair to punish people just because they have money.

Mari Aubuchon 9 years, 8 months ago

bearded gnome:

It is far too easy to consider classic works that have survived decades of reprinting as exemplifying the superior quality of literature of the past. This is simply not true. The vast majority of works that were published alongside those of the authors we all know were just as mediocre as many of the novels of today. However, there are more than a few authors whose works are worth a read.

Just a few of my contemporary favorites from a variety of genres include: Jasper Fforde, Margot Livesey, Kate Horseley, Amy Tan, Gail Tsukiyama, and Graham Joyce.

If you like mysteries with a good bit of psychology and some serious grit, do give Denise Mina a try. Her writing is truly brilliant.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 8 months ago

trinity, if you want the recipe you gotta go back to yesterday. And enough already about the roast, I'm drooling on my keyboard. I'm going to have to contact the Olsen twins on how to manage my figure.

e_m, you are all wise and powerful...do you know of any good architects? (I didn't get to read your removed post but I can guess.)

Richard Heckler 9 years, 8 months ago

As far as a library out west is concerned one idea that has been mentioned is opening up the Free State High School library to the public. Should the city take over staffing of the High School Library? That would be helpful to USD 497 and west Lawrence.

trinity 9 years, 8 months ago

lol-ok ss, will do; just sounds like a recipe/way to fix a roast i've been lookin' all over for&haven't yet found!

bearded_gnome 9 years, 8 months ago

must hurry... Trinity...look near the end of yesterday's thread I posted on the roast question. then, click on my name and let me know you got that and whether you have any questions...happy to help!


Badger: I completely agree with your 10;25am post! the roads and the sidewalks in the area of Penn are terrible and would have to have some improvement before a library came in.

get a book and go to the park! yes.

Mary, I'll check your authors...I was speaking more on the stuff that's selling high numbers. and yes I know there was schlock around when steinbeck/dickens/etc., were writing. but I'd hate to see them called "outdated" and get ignored!

how many here have read: 1. Winter of our discontent-steinbeck

  1. anything by Nicholas Monsarat

  2. even the grapes of wrath?

  3. smallet (sp>?)

  4. pericles--do you know who wrote that "outdated" drama?

  5. captain blood.

  6. the horatio hornblower series?

there's a good sample of "outdated fiction."
bye, and back in a while.

badger 9 years, 8 months ago

Mari -

Of those you've mentioned, Jasper Fforde is a favorite of mine.

But tell me honestly, can one truly appreciate those books without a fairly solid basis in classical literature? Would "The Eyre Affair" make as much sense or be nearly as good if you'd never read the book? I for one am certainly not suggesting that libraries should only hold 'ancient' or 'antiquated' books, but when they set aside the classics of literature so they can carry an extra copy of "The DaVinci Code" and cut down the waiting list, they're losing something really important.

In "Bellwether" (Connie Willis, fabulous contemporary author), the protagonist tries to act against social trends by encouraging things she feels should thrive. Upon finding out that the local library, in order to keep itself 'fresh', culls out the books that haven't been checked out in a year, she starts perusing the shelves and looking at checkout dates, a one-woman army dedicated to checking them out before their culling date and keeping them available in the library.

As literature expands, libraries have to decide how to expand. But the idea that they'd expand only with regards to current popular literature, and cull out the classics, is anathema to me. I think omb gave the best example. When there are eight books about a current situation or a contemporary public figure, and no books about a historical time frame or figure, then there's a problem.

Yeah, there's a big drive to get people reading anything at all, and I appreciate that, but we can't throw out the quality of a Hardy or an Austen just because the waiting list for the new Amy Tan is five pages long and a second and third copy would be lots more convenient than that dusty old "Jude the Obscure" that no one understands anyway.

trinity 9 years, 8 months ago

got the directions on the bearded one's roast, and am so looking forward to fixin' it! :)

badger 9 years, 8 months ago

One thing I must mention that gives me hope that interest in the classics will not be lost: http://www.gutenberg.org/. You can download any book that's been contributed (has to be public domain and entered by hand, basically) to a desktop, laptop, PDA, even a cellphone that accepts text files.

I've been downloading them to my PDA and carrying the book of the week with me to read.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 8 months ago

Even Money is on the money regarding shelf space. We don't want the powers that be to begin cutting space for material that seems outdated but is it really?

This was discussed at a Wednesday night meeting. Some emphasis is being placed on meeting space however I am willing to forego meeting space for literature any day of the week. Cafe or literature...again literature gets my vote.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 8 months ago

TOB, I've got the binge part down. It's the purge that I just can't seem to master. Every time I vomit, the only thing that comes out are words. (Gets me into trouble every time.)

Richard Heckler 9 years, 8 months ago

Underground parking or excellent childrens program/reading... yep childrens program wins. We've been surviving the elements for quite sometime now.

breeze 9 years, 8 months ago

As much as some of you may like the current location and the library "just as it is," it is very much undersized for the population. Just think of the increase in services and improvement of the collection which would happen with an adequately sized building! Maybe you can't imagine it because you haven't seen such a place.

For those who say expand at the current location, the big question is, Where? Knock down the fire station & senior center? that wouldn't do. Pave over the swimming pool? maybe...but no. The reason there isn't enough parking is there are too many public services concentrated in a tight area. Everyone using those services (and the staff of those buildings) needs parking but there just isn't enough. And having those dad-blamed parking meters and No Tolerance meter enforcers doesn't make it any better.

And for those who say move it to West Lawrence, consider how that would go over with average people. West Lawrence, like it or not, has the reputation of being where the wealthier people live. Yeah, yeah, not everyone there is but it does have that reputation. Moving the library there would risk having the library being considered an elitist institution. And who really believes property there would be any cheaper?

And for those complaining about the homeless sleeping in the library, consider that Lawrence doesn't outlaw public drunkenness, the last I checked. Public urination, harassing other people, similar outbursts related to public drunkenness are not allowed. But just being drunk? No prob! Bring on the alumni tailgaters!

Lawrence needs to decide if they want to keep up with the times, then use what they have to do it. You can't just Think you are a progressive town.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 8 months ago

Book sale space or underground parking? The book sale is a tremendous social event that underground parking must take a back seat.

Mari Aubuchon 9 years, 8 months ago

bearded gnome: Wow...Monsarrat?! I had never heard of him until I few months ago, when I was getting "mentally prepared" for a trip to Malta. The Kapillon of Malta was excellent. I've also enjoyed most of the other works you mention: ) Rafael Sabatini was a special favorite of mine when I was a kid, especially Scaramouche.

badger: You are absolutely right. I started with the classics and still enjoy rereading my favorites upon occasion. I think that a good library should include great works from all time periods. Hardy and Austen are two long-time favorites of mine, by the way.

Mari Aubuchon 9 years, 8 months ago

bearded gnome: Oops. I forgot to tell you that I understand what you mean about "bestsellers". So often the only way in which these books are the best is in their sales. I know that some of the authors I have discovered over the years will probably never get the acclaim they deserve while others with far less talent or skill get so much of the mass-marketing. These are the folks whose books I buy for my collection and suggest to the library.

ms_canada 9 years, 8 months ago

When talking of library location,there are things to consider. Now I must say that Edmonton is a large city so therefore we have many branch libraries. Must be ten at least. (too lazy to look in ph. book) There is a branch within 10 min. of my house by car. I could also go by bus and reach it easily. But what I wanted to say is that two minutes from my house there is a small Mall and in the mall is a tiny branch library. There are a lot of low rental apartments near this mall and the people living there are mostly carless, not careless. This small branch lib. is most convenient for them. The stock of books is small but it is always possible to request a book and it takes only a day or two for it to arrive at the branch and they phone and let you know it is there. Perhaps Lawrence is getting big enough to have such branches. You know, we Canadians produce some very credible authors. Rohinton Mistry is a favourite of mine along with the already mentioned Bernard Cornwell. I liked Mistry's book, A Fine Balance so much I read it twice. Some other Canucks are Margaret Atwood, Margaret Lawrence, Michael Ondahdje and Rudy Weibe. Anyone out there read the incredibly funny Stuart Maclean with his Vinyl Cafe series about Dave and Morley and the kids. Truly Canadian!!!

Staci Dark Simpson 9 years, 8 months ago

Library in the old mall? Thats just wacky. Wackier than a one legged stripper doing a table hop!! I like my small town TOngie library. THey have a great mix of books and also do interlibrary loans with lots of area librarys and almost all KC librarys. It is outstanding!! The current Lawrence library could use more parking. I only say this after dragging a toddler 2 blocks in pouring rain just to get to the library.

Staci Dark Simpson 9 years, 8 months ago

Prospectr- Bookmobile on a roundabout? Thats just scary!!

Linda Aikins 9 years, 8 months ago

"Every time I vomit, the only thing that comes out are words. (Gets me into trouble every time.)"

I'm still laughing over that one. Thanks S_S!

italianprincess 9 years, 8 months ago

Build it up^^^^^^^^^^^^^ add more space that way. Could this possibly be done? I'm not sure, but it sounds good. It would make of course more space, room, and I think save the city money. By adding a floor instead of building a whole new library sounds like a good idea.

Without having to take out any trees or destroy anything of course. Maybe they can build a new senior center, or find a new location for a new senior center. Expanding the parking lot in that direction would be one option for the city. They need more parking anyway.

John Spencer 9 years, 8 months ago

Who cares where it goes, just surround it with 8 roundabouts.

neopolss 9 years, 8 months ago

I didn't think the Lawrence library was all that full. I've definately seen libraries more cram packed than this one. There's no reason to cull anything just yet.

Anyone can get a library card for Watkins for $10 for one year. It's pretty fun to search old old books in the stacks there.

italianprincess 9 years, 8 months ago

Hmmmmmmmmmm.........I don't think I will be taking my youngest son to the Watkins library anytime soon. I heard more then just reading goes on in that library.

ms_canada 9 years, 8 months ago

Bob - 1,500,000 people live in Edmonton. As I said, it is a big city. The oil capital of Canada. I live on the north eastern edge across the river from the big oil refineries. Oh that reminds me, hubby and I were driving home from a party Sat. nite and could not help noticing the flare from the refinery. It was huge for some reason. Lit up the whole sky.

oldfashiongirl 9 years, 8 months ago

Hi,

I don't live in Lawrence, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

Yesterday I spent almost the whole day in church and its activities----Sunday School, worship service, then a church luncheon, came home and made food for the cast and orchestra of our annual "The Life of Christ in Living Pictures, went back to attend the performance that was even better than Hollywood could put out. We've done this for 22 years and I have attended the last 6 years except for 2001 when I had my quintuple heart bypass operation and heart valve replacement and came home from hospital just aching to go but my family wouldn't hear of it.

It is Christ's story in living pictures with real actors in period costume, not in bath robes, our choir's soloists and then the entire choir. It began with the singing of "No Room" --no room for the King of KIngs at the inn. Then a beautiful rendition of "Sweet Little Jesus Boy" and then "Mary, did you know?" It was done with real live baby lambs and the Baby Jesus was played by a newly born baby, who cried right on cue. When Jesus appeared at about 30 year old he was the spitting image of pictures and drawings you see of Him in the Bible.

There were scenes of Him in the temple throwing out the money changers, the episode of the woman at the well and Jesus' admonishment that let he who has not sinned to be first to cast their stones. A memorable scene when Jesus appeared at the sea of Galilee and calmed the stormy water. The set was able to show the waves lapping against the boat. Another scene was the Last Supper portrayal of Jesus and 12 apostles all seated at the dinner table and not a muscle moved and was like they had posted a painting of the supper and then in unison all began moving and talking--so very impressive!!

After He was convicted and sentenced to die, he carried a large wooden cross on which he was to die, and being whipped by Roman soldiers. There was an eerie silence which was interrupted by the sound of stakes being nailed into his hands and feet. It reminded me of my own father who was a blacksmith and would pound the hammer on the anvil to make the exact same sound The next scene showed the 3 on the crosses and the rumbling of the earthquake and then his family taking his body to be buried and on the 3rd day they found the tomb empty. There were spine tingling renditions of "Father Forgive Them" and "When I survey the wondrous cross." There was not a dry eye in the church.

ms_canada 9 years, 8 months ago

TOB - I stand corrected by topeka. 1.1 million is more accurate. And there are 16 libraries in our city. The main library down in the center of the city is fairly new and quite wonderful and very much in use. It is a 2 story affair. In the basement is a good size theater for plays and concerts. There is a coffee shop on the premises, but not run by the library. The branch libraries have programs for children in the summer and many people make use of the banks of computers in each branch. A library card costs $12/year. A bargain at twice the cost. Enough.

ms_canada 9 years, 8 months ago

Oldfashionedgirl - that sounds just wonderful. I would love to see it. How fortunate you are to live there.

oldfashiongirl 9 years, 8 months ago

continuing my 6:10 post

It ended with the congregation and choirs singing "Joy to the World." This was followed by a standing ovation of several minutes.

I was so moved and thought of Lucky Nun's story of her unhappy life with 2 small children and living all alone. Except for the grace of God, there go I. I, too, was left with 2 small children to raise along when my husband traded me in on a sweet young thing when I was 40. If I did not have my church and friends who supported me with their prayers, visits, etc. I would have felt like LN.

I have such peace now, am happy that God loves me and will always be with me. Lawrence is not all that far from western Kentucky and maybe next year some of you might come for the performances. I hope so.

lovelife247 9 years, 8 months ago

Rebuild the library where it stands! Anyone ever heard of Reducing, Reusing or Recycling? Does anyone take it seriously? Or is it just a trendy thing to say? Ride yer bike!

sweatpeagj 9 years, 8 months ago

sunflower sue..thank you for your nice comments about my post. I strongly believe that we should teach our children to always think of others and what they can do to help. I was very lucky to have four beautiful children ( and they were all a handful at times) who still give more than they take. I used to work with physically and mentally challenged individuals and my children were a very large part of that. Even when I worked with very abused children I brought them home to just get a chance to see how a healthy family interacts. Even when we disagree we still did so with respect for each other and our feelings. The kids loved working with abused children for the simple fact that they got to help even if it was only an hour a day to make another child smile and feel cherished. It makes my heart proud and happy to hear you daughter has the love to share with others also. To me this is the greatest gift that far to many people forget to teach or mentor children. My kids always saved their allowance from October on to help buy presents or dinner certificate for others. Even during Lent. whatever they gave up they donated to others either by the money they saved or I did during that time and donated to a charity. I was always amazed that they never gave up anything that was silly or easy for them to do. Again, thank you for raising wonderful children who care about others. You have done a fantastic job. And even a laugh or smile can brighten someones whole day even if they don't know you.

Ceallach 9 years, 8 months ago

I've heard that music calms the savage beast -- I think we should add Literature. All y'all have played so nice today, makes me sorry I couldn't be more involved.

I agree that we desperately need a larger, better stocked library. I also think branches are and idea that would work well for Lawrence. Apparently conrolling traffic with roundabouts is a higher priority than educating the citizens and their little hob-goblins through programs to develop their interest in classical literature. It will be a sad day in Mudville if our illustrious city planners strike out on this one.

bearded_gnome 9 years, 8 months ago

mary: funny you mention Sabatini's Scaramouche, that's on my dresser right now, next read, after I finish "Arundel" by kenneth Roberts published in the '30s.

bearded_gnome 9 years, 8 months ago

badger: am so glad for the project and it is getting a lot of fine books out. however, reading a book as an e-text in whatever format is not the same as a book physically in your hand. the physical book in your hand gives you some surprising memory cues for what you're reading. and the reader's relationship with the text is quite different from the e-text.

bearded_gnome 9 years, 8 months ago

ceallach: conrolling? a word I must look up. sounds like what happens when you are stuck circling a roundabout.

yes, today has been very good on the board indeed! what a pleasure.


robertus primus: yes, much does happen in the watson stacks...glad I don't have the janitorial job to clean it!

Mary, you are a scholar and a lady and I hope we hear more from you.

for those interested, the texas beef council's website is: www.txbeef.org> sorry, I should've posted it last when I referred to them. if you've 'never' cooked beef, they're the website to start with. great information from shopping, selecting cut of beef to cooking instructions, recipes, more.

"I ain't no cowhand.com--heard on www.cowboyculturalsociety.com

heretoday 9 years, 8 months ago

I dont know if someone mentioned this earlier but if they do get local developers.....hopefully its not Compton. No need for corruption. I think that the city will lose a lot of money if they relocate when they could allocate that in other ways (not roundabouts). Plus, Many of the residents' use the vast KU libraries. Expand where it is located. Don't waste money. I know this will not be a question tomorrow..... but if anyone posts later tonight...what do you think of the Tookie Williams decision?

sweatpeagj 9 years, 8 months ago

heretoday...I was shcocked that they decided to go ahead with the execution. I have actually used some of his books to help explain to my kids what gang mentalitity can make you do. I want my children to be leaders in a positive role and I think what he teaches can help in that challenge. I am still so undecided on his guilt or innocence for the simple fact that witnesses are the most unreliable to base a guilt or innocence on. So many studies have been done where ten people were shown the exact same picture and everyone of them described it differently.

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