Archive for Saturday, January 1, 2011

Anti-abortion bills likely to be pushed in Kansas

January 1, 2011

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— Kansas anti-abortion activists feel confident they will be able to push through laws in 2011 to further restrict the procedures.

An ardent foe of abortion rights becomes governor in January and Republicans will have a big majority in the state House.

Abortion rights opponents are looking to further restrict late-term procedures, increase reporting requirements for physicians and make it harder for abortion clinics to get licensed.

Gov.-elect Sam Brownbeck has said he will sign any anti-abortion legislation that reaches his desk.

Mary Kay Culp, the executive director of the anti-abortion group Kansans for Life, says it's a new day in terms of having a governor receptive to stricter anti-abortion legislation.

With an ideological ally about to become governor and Republicans poised to have a big majority in the state House, Kansas abortion rights foes believe they have their best shot in years to push through tighter restrictions on the procedures.

Proposals being discussed would further restrict late-term abortions, increase reporting requirements for physicians and make it harder for abortion clinics to get licensed.

"A new day has dawned and I think we are going to see a tightening of abortion law in Kansas," said Cheryl Sullenger, senior policy adviser for Operation Rescue.

The May 2009 murder of Dr. George Tiller, one of the nation's few late-term abortion providers, by an anti-abortion fanatic dealt a huge blow to Kansas abortion rights movement. Not only did Tiller's Wichita clinic close, but the political action committee he founded and funded was disbanded at the request of his family. Founded in 2002, ProKanDo spent more than $1 million in the four years before Tiller's death promoting abortion rights, helping candidates who supported abortion rights and working against anti-abortion candidates. Its former director, Julie Burkhart, said Tiller understood that advocacy was an important part of ensuring women received care.

"Having that champion . . . we don't have him," she said. "We don't have that in anyone else at this time."

Burkhart, who now heads a St. Louis-based political action committee called Trust Women, said she expects to see a number of anti-abortion rights bills proposed in Kansas this session, particularly since Brownback follows Democratic governors who had vetoed such bills. Former Gov. Kathleen Sebelius resigned to become Health and Human Services secretary under President Barack Obama. She was succeeded by Gov. Mark Parkinson, who chose not to run for a full term.

"Kathleen Sebelius was a great champion — she was our backstop for so many years in Kansas," Burkhart said.

Mary Kay Culp, executive director of the anti-abortion group Kansans for Life, said before lawmakers raise new issues, they should go back and pass legislation that Sebelius and Parkinson vetoed. Those bills included new regulations for clinics, restrictions on late-term procedures and increased reporting requirements for physicians. They've already been vetted and are far more likely to be signed by Brownback this session, she said.

"It is a whole new day as far as having someone (in the governor's office) who is going to be open at looking at the concerns we have about the effect of abortion on unborn children and their mothers," Culp said.

Brownback said he doesn't expect to propose legislation on abortion because he'll be focused on improving the economy and keeping the state budget balanced.

"I will sign pro-life legislation that reaches my desk," he told The Associated Press. "It will be up to the legislative bodies to determine what it is that they want to pass or will pass."

Abortion rights opponents in Kansas and several other states are also considering pushing for so-called fetal pain laws modeled on one recently passed in neighboring Nebraska.

Nebraska's law, which took effect Oct. 15, outlaws abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy based on the disputed claim that fetuses can feel pain after that point. It is a departure from the standard of viability, established by the 1973 landmark U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Roe v. Wade, which allows states to limit abortions in cases where there's a chance the fetus could survive outside of the womb, which is generally considered to be between 22 and 24 weeks.

"(Fetal pain) deserves a serious look and so we are taking a serious look at it," Culp said.

Abortion opponents plan to hold their annual rally Jan. 21 on the steps of the state's capital building.

Peter Brownlie, chief executive officer of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri, said his group will continue to do everything it can to protect the rights of women to make their own decisions about reproduction. But it can count on less than 25 percent of Kansas' House members' votes, he said.

"There is no question it is going to be a challenging session given the election outcome," Brownlie said.

Comments

jjt 4 years, 6 months ago

I ask this each time this subject comes up and as yet have not received a reply. Six months into the pregnancy the baby dies in the womb or it does not have a head, is it ok to remove it, or should the mother be forced to carry the fetus to term?. What I am looking for is a practical answer. For example if one says "All Abortion is murder" . It follows that if the fetus is dead then it is ok to remove it? but that is abortion. Instead of rants lets have some practical responses.

marysfunkygroove 4 years, 6 months ago

They have to remove the fetus if it dies in the womb. Its not abortion if the fetus is already dead. Plus its not healthy for the mother's body to carry it anymore. It just starts to calcify. There is no medical reason to bring it to term because its not growing. Abortion is the removal of a live fetus.

funkdog1 4 years, 6 months ago

Yes, but mary, sometimes a fetus is technically 'alive' only because it is attached to the mother's umbilical cord. As soon as the baby is delivered it dies within moments because it no longer has that life support. Yet staunch pro-lifers will insist that the mother carry the pregnancy to term and deliver a baby that may very well die in front of her.

libra101 4 years, 6 months ago

At risk to her own health, as a lot of these pregnancies end with a c-section, not to mention all the normal risk involved in any pregnancy, let alone high risk ones.

libra101 4 years, 6 months ago

Yes, according to the purists, a woman carrying a severely deformed, yet living fetus, would have to carry the baby to term, even if can't live outside the womb. Someone close to me had an anencephalatic baby. She CHOSE to carry it to term, but Brownback wouldn't give her a choice.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

Hold a mirror up to that, Tom. The misinformation spread by the antiabortion/antichoice crowd is just as disgusting; plastering roaming trucks with touched up pictures of dead monkey fetuses, using bull horns to harass women on what is frequently the most difficult day of their lives. And lets not forget Scott Roeder and his crowd. Five physicians have been murdered (so far), not to mention the thousands of women who committed unintentional suicide prior to legalization. Just as much "big money" is being spent on their campaign. Sebelius was an elected officer of this state. Operation Rescue and the Army of God are not. I'm not going to convince you any more than you are going to convince me. But I find it funny that I could take what you wrote and replace "abortion" with "anti-abortion", "Sebelius" with "Operation Rescue" and "left" with "right" and get what just as many people feel on the other side of the issue.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

/sigh Talking to a wall. I knew better and I did it anyway.

rtwngr 4 years, 6 months ago

You weep for the five physicians who were murdered and the "thousands" of women who committed unintentional (?) suicide prior to legalization. You don't mention the women who have committed suicide as a result of their abortions. You sure don't mention the 52 million children who have been murdered since Roe v. Wade. Abortion has killed more black children than Aids, Cancer, Heart disease, and gang violence combined.

We probably can't convince you but you're not who we want to convince. We want to convince the pregnant mommy that she is carrying a living child not a "blob of tissue". We want to convince mommy that there are other options besides killing.

marysfunkygroove 4 years, 6 months ago

A woman should have the right to her body. SHE has to live with her choices, not you or me.

Liberty275 4 years, 6 months ago

So then prostitution should be legalized as well. Drugs too.

Or maybe you just draw your line in the sand regarding personal liberty a little removed from the anti-abortion crowd's.

deec 4 years, 6 months ago

I don't agree with you on almost anything, but I do on drug use and prostitution.

marysfunkygroove 4 years, 6 months ago

prostitution, drugs...tax it make billions and get america out of debt. I stand by my comment. People (men and women) have the right to do with their bodies as they seem fit. They have to live with the consequences of their actions not you.

deec 4 years, 6 months ago

I agree. They should be legal. Sorry if my comment was unclear

rtwngr 4 years, 6 months ago

What about the baby? Does the baby have a choice?

libra101 4 years, 6 months ago

No, because the fetus doesn't have any rights until it is born.

rtwngr 4 years, 6 months ago

Because it isn't about the mother! It is about a child that cannot defend itself. Just like a toddler that can't defend itself. Just because a baby in the womb cannot be seen or heard does not mean it does not exist.

Jacks_Smirking_Revenge 4 years, 6 months ago

It's probably just me, but this story seems like it could use some tighter editing. Many quotes are repeated, e.g. Culp's and Sullenger's "new day" quote. Also, there are phrasing changes but content remains the same for a few paragraphs. I don't usually read the actual paper so I don't know if there was space that needed filling, but this story is like my comment; too long.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

Slow news day, huh? Gotta drive those mouse clicks.

kansastruthteller 4 years, 6 months ago

My faith says all abortions are wrong ergo I will not have one, but I do not live in a theocracy. I live in a secular country that is governed by the Constitution. That Constitution allows for freedoms that are sometime appalling to others, but as long as it is a personal freedom that does not infringe upon my rights then I have to allow it - no matter how disgusting I might find it.

So abortions must be permitted up until the point that the fetus is viable. Once the fetus is viable then it must be born. People need to focus their energy and resources on stopping abortions of viable fetuses and leave the issue of early term abortions to the mother.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

It depends on your definition of "viable". A baby born to live with no mind and hooked to tubes is not "viable" to me. It is to others. This is despite the fact that even this state has a legal definition of "death" as being "absence of brain activity", not "a beating heart".

rtwngr 4 years, 6 months ago

You're right. I feel the same way about rape and murder. Personally I would never rape or murder a fellow citizen but I don't feel that I have the right to impose my morality on someone else. As long as someone else is being raped or murdered or doing the raping and the murdering then that's okay with me. We don't live in a theocracy so don't try to impose your morality on me.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 4 years, 6 months ago

If you want to have an abortion, you have a legal right to do so it is the law of the land..

If you so not want to have an abortion, do not have an abortion.,

If there are people who do not want you to have an abortion, a legal medical proceedure, they should drop dead. It is none of their damned business as to what your own decisions are in regard to your life decisions and medical decisions. Anti-abortion activists are nothing short of criminal advocates in defying the exercise of legal medical proceedure and this new "governer" is displaying his disregard of legal proceedures by his unflagging crusade to break the law and denying women of their certified legal rights. He is another "Phill Kline in hiding".

rtwngr 4 years, 6 months ago

Dred Scott was the law of the land at one time too. Thank goodness we later discovered that black people are people after all.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

Now it's time to figure out that women are people too.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 6 months ago

It'll be interesting to see what actually gets passed.

Republicans have relied on touchstone issues like abortion to get social conservatives to vote for them, even though the primary constituency of Republicans once they are elected is Wall Street and other corporate interests.

They know that if they ever do greatly restrict women's access to abortion services, women will vote for anybody who will restore those rights, and it won't be Republicans.

Besides, if they do ever greatly restrict abortion, they'll have lost one of their most divisive issues, and they thrive on divisiveness.

rtwngr 4 years, 6 months ago

Yes, but unborn, defenseless children will be saved and that's what the point is after all is said and done.

libra101 4 years, 6 months ago

That may be the point for you. For elected Republicans, all but a handful of true believers that is, the point is to keep the fundies riled up so they keep voting and volunteering. They have already shot for the moon on gay rights, nowhere to go but universal acceptance from here, don't expect them to actually do something that would appease you on abortion.

kusp8 4 years, 6 months ago

Personally, I think abortion is abhorrent and shouldn't be allowed in the US. However, if abortion is outlawed then the issue pivots from a moral issue to a socio-economic issue. The rich will be able to go to Canada or Mexico to get their abortions while the poor will still be left with the 'back alley abortions'. So, instead of killing one life there's a potential for two lives lost for the poorer part of society.....

Just something to ponder.

rtwngr 4 years, 6 months ago

More obfuscation of the truth. The numbers of presented by Bernard Nathanson, cofounder of NARAL, of illegal abortions in the U.S. was a self admitted lie to garner public support. what is not a lie is 52 million dead children since Roe v. Wade.

deec 4 years, 6 months ago

I realize they are a small percentage of the abortions performed annually, but what about rape and incest? What if the condom breaks? What if you are married to someone who doesn't believe in birth control? What if you want the baby, but it will be incapable of living once born?

libra101 4 years, 6 months ago

"What about good old personal responsibility" aka punishing women for having sex.

deec 4 years, 6 months ago

I think making little Mr. Happy happy should be a crime. After all, you are wasting potential life. End sarcasm.

funkdog1 4 years, 6 months ago

There are many, many families who get pregnant on good faith and who have every intention of keeping the baby. But there are thousands of pregnancies a year that end catastrophically in deformations that will not allow that baby to live once it has become unnattached from the mother's umbilical cord. To insist that these families carry those pregnancies to term only to have their babies die is cruel. Not everyone has the mental fortitude to handle such a thing.

SnakeFist 4 years, 6 months ago

I'm pro-choice, but I recognize that, for those who believe abortion involves murdering children, its not as simple as saying "if you think murdering children is wrong then don't murder one, but respect my right to choose whether or not to murder one."

But if there are people who honestly believe children are being murdered in violation of God's law, then why don't they take more drastic steps to stop it, regardless of what man's flawed law says? Their lack of action betrays a lack of conviction.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 6 months ago

"Their lack of action betrays a lack of conviction."

If he could speak, George Tiller would beg to disagree.

SnakeFist 4 years, 6 months ago

Yes, but obviously Tiller is the exception, not the rule. Where are the millions of others who claim to believe that abortion involves the murder of innocent children?

kansastruthteller says she does nothing because we don't live in a theocracy, but a Christian should be more concerned about God's law than man's form of government.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..." I think Jesus made it pretty plain that His followers were not to drag His religion into politics. Jesus taught a type of social justice that still doesn't exist to this day and never will.

"But if any one of us should interfere In the business of why there are poor They'd get the same as the rebel Jesus."

SnakeFist 4 years, 6 months ago

Separating religion from daily life is nothing more than an attempt to have it both ways: Go to church on Sunday and assert God is the ultimate authority, but violate his law all week long by deferring to man's imperfect and immoral law when the two conflict.

mom_of_three 4 years, 6 months ago

It's funny how Brownback opposed Obama's health care, because it was imposed on the states without choice, but he has no problem with taking the choice of a woman to do with her own body, because he doesn't think it is right.

I am pro choice. I could most likely never choose to have an abortion, but I am not going to take someone else's right to their body away from them. it's their choice.

verity 4 years, 6 months ago

My prediction is that he will not. So here you have it in writing.

I believe Brownback probably is truly anti-abortion, but he will also do what is politically expedient. In this case, I don't believe it would be politically expedient. After all, he looks to be positioning himself for another presidential run.

Don't think he would anyway. But I could be wrong.

verity 4 years, 6 months ago

I wonder if some people would be so virulently anti-abortion if it weren't for the sexual element---one normally has sex to get pregnant and many people who have abortions have had sex outside of marriage. I've always thought this was the real reason that many people oppose it.

I remember before Roe v Wade. People still had abortions---and many died. No laws will ever stop it.

Jcjayhawk1 4 years, 6 months ago

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 6 months ago

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KayCee 4 years, 6 months ago

No, just a statement of truth. Getting what he deserved doesn't mean that is the way to do things.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 6 months ago

That utterly contradictory. You can't have it both ways.

SnakeFist 4 years, 6 months ago

It is clearly human in that it has human (not cat or cow) DNA, and it is clearly alive or else the woman miscarried and doesn't need an abortion.

However, the fetus is not a person with moral rights because it lacks reason, which is the only thing that distinguishes persons from non-persons.

KayCee 4 years, 6 months ago

Medical and scientific tests prove it IS human, so you post is false. I don't know anyone who supported Roeder. He murdered a man, doing the same thing Tiller was doing.

libra101 4 years, 6 months ago

You missed Snake's point entirely. Of course the fetus of a human mother is human. What it isn't is a person with rights under the law. Tiller didn't murder living, breathing, born Americans. He provided women with a private and personal and legal medical procedure. Scott Roeder shot a man in the face.

libra101 4 years, 6 months ago

Plenty of abortion supporters have seen sonograms. I've personally had 9 of them, and each time I was reminded of the huge responsibility, physically, emotionally and financially, that I had taken on. If I were unprepared or unwilling to take on that responsibility, no sonogram in the world would have convinced me otherwise.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

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Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

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marysfunkygroove 4 years, 6 months ago

As a mother who watched those first beautiful moments on a sonogram, I am still pro choice. Not the choice I could make but one that someone who was raped by a family member or addicted to crack should be able to make.

pace 4 years, 6 months ago

I can understand differing opinions on abortion, rights, pros and cons. but it seems insane for a governor to pronounce 'Gov.-elect Sam Brownbeck has said he will sign any anti-abortion legislation that reaches his desk." Is his signature and station to be void of any responsibility? He will sign anything is a nutty statement. He should read it and then choose to sign it. If he has no responsibility they should remove the need for him to sign it.

Jimo 4 years, 6 months ago

Other than the obvious problems with these laws (the better off will circumvent any of them for the price of an airplane ticket), these proposals are a mixed bag.

Increasing reporting requirements on doctors - probably okay.

Making licensing harder to obtain - probably not okay.

Banning abortion after 20 weeks (a la Nebraska) - almost certainly not okay. (There might be room to adjudicate competing interests: does the mother seek a late term abortion because serious problems with the fetus were only discovered late or for some whimsical reason. But banning all cases? No way.)

One wonders how a state already balancing its budget on the backs of the poor feels it has a few million to send to Planned Parenthood to pay their attorneys fees to defeat efforts that even the most honest proponents will admit in private they know to be unconstitutional.

I also wonder how State's attorneys (in some place like Arizona) would argue in court to avoid an abortion for a late term pregnancy diagnosed with severe heart defects requiring serial surgeries starting at birth that will also later require a heart transplant (assuming no other defects that would disqualify such a transplant) when the State is already - even this very day - sentencing to death adults also requiring heart transplants that the State refuses to pay for, pleading poverty while refusing to collect taxes from those who are anything but poor. (As if there isn't a special corner of hell for such politicians.)

Do people like Ms. Culp rejoice in the torture and pointless deaths of newborns or do they all so easily wash their hands of responsibility for this baby crucifixion by transferring responsibility for this to a monstrous god who in the course of thousands of words of sacred text never got around to asking for this sanctimonious assistance in his ordering of the universe?

What's so very sad is that there is a basis - and considerable political support - to engage in a rational review for such late term abortions but the zealots refuse to sign on to any process that might in some circumstances endorse an abortion as preferable and instead insist on only the most extreme course of action - a total criminal ban on poor people getting abortions regardless of the circumstances.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

It's BarryPampers, the local gadfly who can't make up his mind whether he's Noel Coward, Oscar Wilde or Hunter S. Thompson. Either way he's a legend in his own mind and never makes sense. Just give him a soft pat, tell him it's going to be ok and ignore him. It's for the best.

kernal 4 years, 6 months ago

Personally, I would choose not to have an abortion. But, I have the RIGHT to choose.

There are reasons on each side of the debate that are valid for Right to Choose and for no abortion, but I have to go with the Right to Choose side of the debate. There are so many reasons why abortions should be allowed by a woman who is of age, even for young girls (Please don't ask me why because children read these posts). But, I guarantee that if the right to choose is is negated, you will see a lot of butchering and sucides; not to mention the increased costs of government supporting children which many conservatives rant about.

Tex 4 years, 6 months ago

" frwent (anonymous) says…

If you want to have an abortion, you have a legal right to do so it is the law of the land..

If you so not want to have an abortion, do not have an abortion."

Frwent, Slavery was once legal in the United States. The concept you stated was a common defense of legal slavery, and many citizens would not tolerate being told that they could not legally own slaves. Wherever slavery was legal, proponents of legal slavery held that every citizen who could afford a slave should have the right to choose whether he or she should own one. The fact that it was legal and popular in parts of our country, even to the point of being deemed an economic necessity, did not make it right.

kernal 4 years, 6 months ago

If that's the best comparison you can come up with, you've strengthend my conviction for the right to choose. It's pretty lame, Tex, but I congratulate you for trying.

ksjayhawk74 4 years, 6 months ago

You're saying that since slavery was once accepted and legal, women should not have a choice as to what happens to their body?

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

Hmmm, your analogy carries weight when you consider that refusing to allow half of the human race to have control of their body is, in and of itself, tantamount to slavery. Slavery is no more "right" now than it was then. I rather doubt that was what you were going for, though.

Tex 4 years, 6 months ago

You rather doubt correctly! The one person in the abortion decision who doesn't have any choice is the baby. One common way that abortion supporters try to justify the procedure is to apply a label other than "baby" to the living human inside the mother's womb, just as many supporters of slavery tried to assert that the Africans they owned as slaves weren't really human, at least not in the same sense as American citizens of Anglo-Saxon descent.

hujiko 4 years, 6 months ago

But it isn't a baby at conception. First it's an egg. Then it's fertilized. Becomes an embryo. Develops into a fetus. Is born. Is finally a baby.

That is not a justification, it's scientific nomenclature.

Tex 4 years, 6 months ago

At what point is the developing person not human? At what point does the baby acquire the right to life, the most basic of human rights? Is the developing person not human one day and suddenly human the next? The idea that a baby is not human until born does not wash; I personally know a child who was born at 26 weeks and is a healthy toddler today. Other babies are dissected and removed in pieces from their mothers' wombs at 26 weeks; is one human and the other not?

kernal 4 years, 6 months ago

One of the things that has always fascinated me about the abortion debate is the gender issue. The majority of those who are against abortion are men. You rarely see women getting vocal and violent behind the right to choose, unless they have a smug self-rightous husband standing in close proximity, but there sure are a lot of men who are doing battle against it. That speaks volumes!

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

Actually, the very first attack on Dr. Tiller, where he was shot in the arms, was by a woman, Shelley Shannon. She was convicted of attempted murder and sentenced to eleven years in prison. She was also convicted of setting multiple fires at abortion clinics in five states. However, the five murders of abortion doctors that have been committed to date have been done by men. Shannon's daughter, Angela, was convicted of sending a letter threatening the life of an abortion doctor and sentenced to 48 months. I am prochoice and very firm in that conviction. Most women I know are also prochoice. I do know a very few women that are antiabortion but they are in the decided minority; no more than one or two. But is that reflective of the world at large or just the company I keep?

libra101 4 years, 6 months ago

Women are more pro-choice than men generally. Probably because women tend to have babies and it isn't just some abstract concept. Being pregnant and having a baby is really, really hard. Most men can't possibly understand it, while all women can imagine the possibility of an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy.

Tex 4 years, 6 months ago

You may not see a lot of women getting "violent" in their opposition to abortion, but there are plenty who have been and are quite "vocal:" Start here: http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm and then try here: http://liveaction.org/ and, to further disrupt your stereotypes of pro-lifers: http://www.plagal.org/

Believe it or not, there are even pro-life "liberals!" http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/nvp/hentoff.html

ksjayhawk74 4 years, 6 months ago

So much for the Conservative fight against "big government"...

libra101 4 years, 6 months ago

Conservatives love big government when it comes to nosing around other people's private parts.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

Those are illegal, not because the "baby" was killed, but because the pregnancy was interrupted and the mother's choice to carry the pregnancy to term was blocked. Those cases are, in a way, "illegal" abortion and yes, the person is charged with manslaughter and even sometimes murder because he/she interrupted the process whereby a potential human becomes a human and had they not done so it would have become a human. It sounds convoluted but the fetus has no rights. The law rests entirely on the rights and intentions of the mother.

davidsmom 4 years, 6 months ago

If it is not a human being before it is viable outside the womb, then what is it before it becomes viable? If a pregnant woman is not carrying a baby before it is viable outside the womb, then what exactly is she carrying? If she is not carrying a baby, then how is she considered pregnant? What is the definition of pregnancy? If a baby is not a growing human being before it is viable outside the womb, what makes it suddenly change from whatever it was to human?

deec 4 years, 6 months ago

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=11893 Pregnancy: The state of carrying a developing embryo or fetus within the female body. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pregnancy Definition of PREGNANCY 1 : the quality of being pregnant (as in meaning) 2 : the condition of being pregnant : gestation 3 : an instance of being pregnant Pregnant: containing a developing embryo, fetus, or unborn offspring within the body

tophawk87 4 years, 6 months ago

This will help the entire moral atmosphere of Kansas, abortion is a horrible form of murder and the ultimate in child abuse...

Bob Harvey 4 years, 6 months ago

Ksfbcoach....you ask the question that has always troubled me as well. My personal opinions on abortion are just that...personal. However, the law does seem a bit confused on the issue of life. As you mention if a woman is victimized in some way that kills the fetus there can be charges of murder or manslaughter. But if the same woman decides to terminate the pregnancy the same rules do not apply. I suppose one can carry this further and say if the mother has the right to say, "it is my decision alone to say whether the termination happens", then could one say she maintains that right after the birth? I know the mother of my children has at least once or twice wished that were the case. (The last sentence was in jest, I assure you).

The issue of murder/ manslaughter versus the woman's right to terminate though still intrigues me though.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

Please see my answer to ksfbcoach above. Basically it all rests on the rights of the mother. Even in cases of murder/manslaughter the fetus has no rights as it is not yet a "human being".

deec 4 years, 6 months ago

If you don't want your woman to abort your spawn, don't impregnate her.

TheYetiSpeaks 4 years, 6 months ago

Let me start by saying that I AM a Christian. However, I believe that abortion CANNOT be completely outlawed for many of the reasons already brought up above: danger to the mother, child would not live outside of womb making it 100% not viable, etc. Our understanding of life, or lack thereof does not allow us to deal in absolutes. There must be times when the possibility of an abortion should be allowed. That does not excuse people for taking responsibility for their actions. Someone above alleged that women should be able to have sex without responsibility...No one should have sex without responsibility. Just because many men do that doesn't mean women should degrade themselves down to these men's level. Just because something can be enjoyable doesn't mean it doesn't carry responsibility. Sometimes I'd like to have many drinks at the local pub and drive myself home but I have a responsibility to myself and others to not do so.

Also, any Christian that supports and advocates the murder of Dr. Tiller is NOT a true Christian at all, and I find you quite disgusting.... "But I say to you that hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other one also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.......Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Luke 6: 27-37

deec 4 years, 6 months ago

I'm not sure where you are getting "Someone above alleged that women should be able to have sex without responsibility...No one should have sex without responsibility. Just because many men do that doesn't mean women should degrade themselves down to these men's level. " If you want to end abortion, start holding men accountable. Stop holding women up as some sort of vessel of moral and sexual purity who shouldn't be "degraded" by behaving like men. Women like sex. We admit it now. If all the energy the anti-choice crowd has expended over the years had been devoted instead to stamping out irresponsibility in men's sexuality and lack of responsibility in supporting their children,there might not be much need for abortion.

deec 4 years, 6 months ago

Nope. Just pointing out that the anti-choice crowd never seems to have anything to say about men's role in the abortion issue. I gave birth to three sons, was married to a man for twenty years (until I got tired of his adultery), and my best friend is a man.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

"Just because many men do that doesn't mean women should degrade themselves down to these men's level." This holds women to a different standard of responsibility and simply isn't fair or just. Sex is not "degrading" and if you feel that way I feel sorry for you. The answer is to hold men as responsible as women for the result of their activity but I don't see that happening.

TheYetiSpeaks 4 years, 6 months ago

My point was to hold men and women equally responsible....sorry if that got lost in an effort to be brief.

situveux1 4 years, 6 months ago

This article seems to repeat itself quite a bit.

"Abortion rights opponents are looking to further restrict late-term procedures, increase reporting requirements for physicians and make it harder for abortion clinics to get licensed."

"Proposals being discussed would further restrict late-term abortions, increase reporting requirements for physicians and make it harder for abortion clinics to get licensed."

Pretty poor writing, pretty poor writing...

whats_going_on 4 years, 6 months ago

Tough subject.

I am pro-life for sure but at the same time I don't agree with late-term abortions unless in the case of physically harming the mother. I don't know a good way of explaining WHY I feel like this, I just do. I just feel like if the mother decides to terminate the pregnancy, she should do it as early as possible...no reason to delay.

Corey Williams 4 years, 6 months ago

Here's a good way of explaining why:

Most women who choose to abort don't wait eight months to do so. Most of those choices are made in the first trimester, soon after it is known that the pregnancy exists.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

Late term abortions are never done on a "whim" as much as the anti abortion forces would like you to believe so. They are done because something is horribly wrong with the fetus (and I can name a ton of those conditions). Ever seen a two headed calf or a six legged kitten? Crude analogies but it happens to humans too. Many of these conditions can't be diagnosed until late(er) in pregnancy. We simply don't have the technology to do it. These are babies that will be born and die or live on life support for a few days and then die. They have no brains, no hearts, no livers or pea sized lungs. It's estimated by ACOG (the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology) that such conditions occur in 1% of all pregnancies. Doesn't sound like much but factor in that there are millions of babies born in this country each year and that makes that figure in the thousands. How do these threaten the life of the mother? There are risk factors involved in even normal pregnancies; high blood pressure and gestational diabetes among them. Risk factors can and do skyrocket with an abnormal pregnancy. Now factor in those women who do it because they truly are having their lives threatened. They've been diagnosed with cancer, liver failure, kidney failure, heart conditions that make progressing with the pregnancy truly life threatening. If the baby is viable they will deliver by C-section and hope for the best, but if not abortion is the only option. Again, this is a very low percentage but translate that to numbers and you still have thousands of women facing it. What I found interesting is that those percentages actually translate and compare to the number of late term abortions being done. In fact, the number of late term abortions being done is slightly less, meaning that their are women out their either willing to risk their lives or live in states that force them to, to bring that baby into the world even if it does have no brain. Something to chew on.

whats_going_on 4 years, 6 months ago

I totally just realized I meant pro-CHOICE. I'm an idiot.

But yeah, I didn't even think about problems with the child.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

The really horrible thing about this is these are people who are going through a tragic and traumatic event in their lives and the state has to interfere in it and make it even more traumatic. This state has outlawed "partial birth abortion", a procedure that doesn't exist and no doctor in the US has ever performed. It's a "procedure" made up by the anti-abortion forces to scare people and an out and out lie. There is a procedure called "intact extraction" and frequently people confuse it with "partial birth abortion". They are NOT the same. Intact extraction is aborting the fetus in such a way that the parents have an intact body to grieve over, name and bury. I really want to know why this is such a bad thing. As much as Dr. Tiller was vilified, he provided grief counseling and referrals for funeral and other support services to parents forced into late term abortion.

libra101 4 years, 6 months ago

In both of my pregnancies I didn't have a sonogram until 21 weeks. This is the norm when everything seems to be going as planned. Under Kansas law, I would have had 1 week to decide what to do if my sonogram had discovered something wrong with the fetus. These are the situations that George Tiller dealt with. No one makes this decision on a lark.

Cait McKnelly 4 years, 6 months ago

Go away, Barry. I'm trying to sleep here.

Corey Williams 4 years, 6 months ago

How about this: since the bible doesn't say anything about abortion, why not focus more on the things it does talk about?

"Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.” Mark 10:9-12

Come on. Most states still have adultery laws. It wouldn't be hard to get them back in the rest of the states. Let's focus on the real threat to marriage: divorce.

kernal 4 years, 6 months ago

"Let's focus on the real threat to marriage: divorce." I agree with that sentence Corey, but not in the context of this story. I've yet to see a shotgun marriage work, even after twenty-five years of marriage. Divorce is caused by marrying for the wrong reasons, plus lack of communication and commitment to the marriage.

deec 4 years, 6 months ago

Divorce is also caused by adultery, physical abuse, drug abuse.

BigPrune 4 years, 6 months ago

If abortion wasn't killing a baby, then every woman who's getting ready to have one or just had one wouldn't be weeping in the doctor's office. If you think about the reasons, the vast majority of reasons - like what, 99%?, it's really a very selfish act.

Tex 4 years, 6 months ago

I used to be pro-abortion; I once helped a co-worker get an abortion (I was not the father; I'll regret what I did til the day I die). I am not any more. Life is full of difficult choices, but, regardless of the spirit of moral relativism that rules the world these days, some things are inherently wrong and will always be inherently wrong. Racism is one, taking the life of an innocent human being is another. I've heard abortion supporters refer to abortion providers as "heroes." I would disagree, and offer an example of a real hero: http://ericsammons.com/blog/2010/10/25/catholic-man-adopts-fifty-children-to-save-them-from-abortion/

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