Share the pain
Here's a sign that your street may be the worst in the city: It needs to be mowed.
"Look, we have plants growing out of the street," said Kendra Noll, as she pointed to the buckled and worn bricks underfoot.
Such is life on the 1100 block of Pennsylvania Street, which can officially be proclaimed as the city street in the worst condition.
City engineers throughout the year travel across Lawrence looking at street after street. Eventually - usually it takes about three years - they end up providing a score for every section of street.
In their latest report, Pennsylvania between 11th and 12th streets topped the list. Streets receive a score from 1 to 100. This one-block section of Pennsylvania scored a six.
Noll, who has lived along the stretch of street for a year, thinks engineers got it right.
'Third World' streets
"I just got back from Costa Rica, and this definitely compares to a lot of the streets that were there - Third World country streets," Noll said.
Engineers completed their latest survey of streets in October, but the results were presented recently to commissioners as part of the 2009 budget process.
If nothing else, the list provided a reminder of how much work city leaders have to do - and how long it may take.
"Realistically, it is going to be awhile before we get to the point of rebuilding many of these residential streets," said Chuck Soules, city public works director. "I can't make any guarantees about how many we'll get to because the list will be endless."
City commissioners are poised to ask voters in November to approve a 0.3 percent sales tax for increased street maintenance and other infrastructure needs.
City Manager David Corliss and his staff have recommended using a good portion of the proposed sales tax money to rebuild four major stretches of city street. They include portions of Bob Billings Parkway, Kasold Drive, 19th Street and Wakarusa Drive.
But none of the four sections of street is among the 40 worst ranked streets in the city. Soules, though, said his staff has to consider more than just a pavement condition score when deciding which streets are candidates for a major rebuilding.
Unlike a Pennsylvania Street, for example, these streets carry large amounts of traffic, and motorists travel at higher speeds.
Soules believes the city could save thousands of dollars a year in maintenance costs if the major streets are rebuilt. That's because a new street should last at least 20 years with minimal maintenance expense.
City leaders are saying that's how the new sales tax could help the smaller city streets. The money that is now spent patching potholes on major streets could be shifted to other streets. Plus, Corliss' sales tax proposal includes $500,000 a year for increased street and sidewalk maintenance in older areas of town.
That may sound like a lot, but at today's construction prices, it would be spent in a hurry. Soules said it cost about $200,000 per block to rebuild a typical residential street.
Brick paving
Many of the streets on the list of 40 worst streets also face another hurdle. Some 17 of the 40 streets are brick. Soules said brick streets traditionally have confounded city leaders.
Often, neighborhoods don't want to lose the charm of a brick street, but it costs about $700,000 a block to rebuild a brick street. The city is rebuilding a portion of brick street on Ohio Street, but they've been aided by a state grant that pays 80 percent of the costs.
"For the most part, our policy has been to just leave them alone," Soules said of brick streets. "We know that's not the best answer, but we need some direction."
So, where does that leave a street like Pennsylvania? The simple answer is in limbo.
Soules can't promise that residential street will get major improvements, even if voters approve a new sales tax. And voters who live along Pennsylvania Street aren't making any promises either.
Two potential voters were out on the street on Thursday morning. Both said they were less than certain that they would vote for a new sales tax, despite living along the worst street in the city. Noll said she may be more inclined to live with a rough street than live with less money in her wallet.
Cynthia Butler said she definitely wanted the street fixed - she said the potholes could swallow a car's tire - but she needed more convincing that she should pay more money to the city.
"I think there probably are a lot of things that can be cut in the budget," Butler said.
Comments
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merrill (anonymous) says…
Fix the sidewalks and keep public transportation. This will cost far less money. I just visited an older town in Pennsylvania that have had 5'-6' wide walks for at least 60 years and are well maintained or use a better concrete.Older eastside neighborhood residents have been paying maintenance taxes for 50-100 years. Why are these neighborhoods being asked to pay more? Did other neighborhoods borrow eastside tax dollars and never paid it back? What's up? Where are the eastside tax dollars?I am somewhat puzzled how any newer westside streets need repair because they such infants in the real world.
merrill (anonymous) says…
I recently have been reading that civil servants can do the same work private contractors do for half as much. Not only that civil servants can be held more accountable.So many private contractors in Lawrence are from elsewhere. How can they possibly do work for less than civil servants? Why not keep local civil servants on board or hire the necessary numbers of civil servants, take care of Lawrence and keep the money in town? Laying off and firing civil servants will not help the local economy. Keep them on the job replacing sidewalks.Privatize privatize privatize is all we hear anymore. Notice how taxes and fees continue to escalate?
KsTwister (anonymous) says…
Come on Merrill, that ideology isn't going to work here. Unlike other cities across the country who can tout the longevity of their streets and roads, Lawrence uses the cheapest materials, the cheapest preparations and the lack of intelligence to maintain them. Unlike the managers in the past our last 15 years has seen the money gleaned to pipe dreams, the maintenance placed on hold, the reasoning that streets are not a priority to have everything crumble at once. Every summer from the time I was a second grader the city use to do major street work on alternating sections of the main thoroughfares as well as one section of town maintenance. It's much better to find someone who knows how to manage then to listen to the excuses.
blue73harley (anonymous) says…
So much for the ramblings of earlier posters touting the "benefits" and lower maintenance costs of brick streets.Their ONLY benefit is appearance.I wonder what the cost would be for concrete stamped and colored like brick?
TopJayhawk (anonymous) says…
All I know is that street one block east of Naismith, that fronts that dorm catty-corner from the field house is the worst road I have ever driven on. Their is no road there. It is one large pothole.
classclown (Class Clown) says…
The article states that the 1100 block of Pennsylvania Street is the absolute worst, yet they didn't bother to mark it on the map.
igby (anonymous) says…
Lawrence has become a city of social welfare and special interest draining of the tax dollars have left the basics of street repair lacking. If you think your going to raise taxes to pay for what we as tax payers have already paid for your wrong.
Coach_Eric (anonymous) says…
I agree Merrill, why doesn't the East side get a little more respect? Take 19th out to Maple. At that intersection, the roads had detieorated to the point where you could see rebar under the roads!I also love how, with regards to the sales tax, they say "that's how the new sales tax could help the smaller city streets." Well, *of course* that's what they're going to say! All they're trying to do is to drum up more support for an unsupportable sales tax by appealing to our sense of entitlement. Does anybody really think that the quality or condition of our roads will improve, when city leaders are already waffling on the issue by mentioning how "other infrastructure needs" will be addressed with the raised tax?I am so sick and tired of this city commission.
mltetbnc (anonymous) says…
Bluffs Drive is a city street too. You'd think a street where rebar can be seen in the pot holes more than 6 times on a street so short would get some mention.
none2 (anonymous) says…
I think they left out quite a few areas. There are potholes all over the place on Louisiana between 17th and 19th. Likewise 17th between Tennessee & Kentucky. Probably much fewer people are driving on Louisiana given that 19th and Louisiana is closed. As to ignoring the roads and instead keeping the Em-T and fix the sidewalks, that is one of the stupidest comments I have ever heard. Last I knew the Em-T used the same roads that cars and trucks use. Are we going to All-Terrain style buses. As to sidewalks, most of the problems I have seen with them is that some of them were so stupidly designed. Such as handicapped access on one hand, yet steps on the other -- ALL on the same block. I wondered if a handicapped person was supposed to be handicapped for half a block, then somehow jump over the stairs for the other half. How stupid can sidewalk planners get.
gccs14r (anonymous) says…
"So much for the ramblings of earlier posters touting the "benefits" and lower maintenance costs of brick streets."I dunno. Four times the initial construction cost seems to translate into 100 years of zero maintenance cost.
pooter (anonymous) says…
Perhaps Lawrence could learn from Fort Smith, Arkansas. In 1985 Fort Smith was a city comparable in size to Lawrence and the voters there first approved a 10 year, one cent sales tax dedicated to nothing but streets and drainage. Like us their streets were too small to handle traffic flow, many were in disrepair and many areas of town were prone to flooding. After 10 years, as the tax was to sunset, the voters overwhelmingly approved it again under the same terms because they could see the vast improvements made to their city street system, with widenings of major streets and repairs to neighboring streets improving traffic flow in and around the city. With some true vision and planning, Lawrence could do the same. And if our current leadership can't get on board and get something done with issues as important as this, then lets make the changes necassary to begin to really get something done.*
cds (anonymous) says…
Lol, priceless, strip the old cobblestone streets back down to worn out, broken down and missing cobblestone and never repave it because of the few people who like it, then wonder why they are in such sad shape. The cobblestone ones wouldn't be a current issue if they wouldn't have stoped the repaving in the mid 90's. I'm so glad I moved away from cobblestone streets and the people who wanted them, best thing I ever did. Now if there was only someway to have the people who wanted them pay to fix it instead of me helping to pay for fix their screwup, then I'd be happy.
ILoveLawrence (anonymous) says…
Hello city council - 3/4 of the locations on the map are east of Iowa, yet 3/4 of the streets slated for repair are west of Iowa. I see a problem here.
Boeing (anonymous) says…
0.3% to keep my car from ending up in China via holes in the ground? Small price to pay! As long as it actually get used for that and not hookah or some such nonsense :)
repaste (anonymous) says…
That tax is only partly for streets. Foxfire will get new curbs, 6th & Wak will get 4th new sidewalk in 4 years. Ilove L, that is why there are no auto parts stores west of Iowa.
bearded_gnome (anonymous) says…
'It is going to be awhile before we get to the point of rebuilding many of these residential streets'---especially since *most* are in *east lawrence* and some in neglected north lawrence! that blockof Penn is *bad* and I've written about it here before. ***for those new to these threads, here's a little reference guide to help understand merrill's posts: he thinks broken streets serve a good purpose as *passive traffic calming devices*! he is on the dreaded traffic safety commission, and he opposes *driving*! the comparison to third world streets gladdens his heart, as he wants us all to live a third world existance. he has applauded power outages because they force energy savings! his idea of switching to mass transit and fixing sidewalks: yeah, riiiiiiiiiight! the bus drives on the same *broken street* and is heavier than a car! ***none2, indeed, that is a problem noticeable all over town. wheelchair ramps that lead nowhere. boondoggle.
bearded_gnome (anonymous) says…
quite an admission by Chuck (in the article):they don't know what to do about the brick streets, so they ignore them!!takes a lot of money to fix, but they stay fixed much much longer than the other streets. if you didn't know what to do, then *figure out what to do* instead of sitting on your hands and watching the grass grow--on the 11-hundred block of pennsylvania!
beatle919 (Marcy McGuffie) says…
I can't believe they don't have Indiana between 4th and 6th on that map (one block is worse than the other, but I can't remember which). What a horrid stretch of road! I don't even know how to describe the things wrong with the road, but I'll make every effort to avoid it - that should've been fixed years ago. But obviously, even if it had made the list, it sure sounds like they'd rather spend money on newer roads which are already in pretty decent shape.
bearded_gnome (anonymous) says…
subject of the article connects to a theme on which I have posted often:especially under the previous city commission, huge sums were wasted on roundabouts, instead of *fixing streets*! the push for these roundies came from ... wait for it ... *the traffic safety commission*! hmmmmmmmmmm, do we know somebody on that commission? we wasted money on roundies, and we spend 2% for art. we can't fix the lmh-lack-of-mental-health-ward problem. we can't properly fix the streets. but heck, we really need new roundabouts, don't we?!is it possible that ol' Merrill *wanted* the streets to deteriorate? he and his cronies like Carrie Maynard-------Moody [yDOOM-dranyam], have opposed building, and now completing, the SLT ... *because people will drive on it! hmmmm!
benmuggn (anonymous) says…
I dont no why they went back to the brick road in the first place. It cost alot more to unsurface the road to brick then it would have to fix them.
ILoveLawrence (anonymous) says…
beatle - it's the 400 block of Indiana - it's like perpetual speed bumps (er calming devices) every one foot for the entire block.
jrlii (anonymous) says…
The 1100 block of Pennsylvania St. is one of the streets where they unearthed the bricks from under layers of asphalt back in the '80s or 90s - I remember Mike Rundle recruiting people to help finish scraping up the asphalt after the pavement grinder went past - I don't know if that was the one he was recruiting for but there were several which got the treatment about that time.I own a house on that block of Pennsylvania. The brick pavement is on that block is in such poor shape (and missing altogether in spots) I'd recommend taking 'em up, saving 'em for repairs elswhere and putting down fresh concrete. The street is in such a state you can't merely cover 'em up with a typical asphalt overlay - It'll take a complete repaving job to have something which isn't effectively a continuous series of speed bumps.While brick streets may be period correct for the houses along there, I suspect most of the property owners wouldn't mind a repaving job, I know I wouldn't.
mom_of_three (anonymous) says…
Glad someone mentioned Louisiana between 17th & 19th. SO many potholes on that street.
mike_blur (Mike Blur) says…
How about Missouri between 9th and 11th? You need a mouthpiece to drive that street. I spend 100 percent ofmy time in Lawrence east of Iowa, and haven't seen a repair crew in ages.
ILoveLawrence (anonymous) says…
If you look at the source document, nearly every street mentioned is in the older part of town. Glad my taxes are supporting the "burbs" out west rather than my own neighborhood.
bmorey (anonymous) says…
I live in the 2100 block of Vermont and hope no one ever tries to fix our street. It is a very charming brick street, as well as a wonderful traffic calming device.
paavopetie (anonymous) says…
Yes, the horrible roads are one of the reasons why I'm moving from Lawrence to KC. I'm glad to see 19th St. getting fixed. Seriously, that was my bike route to the bus stop, and I had to start using a mountain bike instead of a road bike because it was so bad.And the roundabouts are terrible. I was biking through one the other day and almost got nailed. The partial medians in the middle of the street don't make any sense either. I just piss off the people behind me because I have to take up the entire lane.I'm so pissed at the lack of basic service in Lawrence that I considered running for the city commission. But I'm moving instead.
readit (anonymous) says…
The 400 block of Indiana is paved-over trolley tracks. Really bumpy if you don't know they're there. I have seen speeding drivers damage their cars when they go over that stretch. It's our own traffic-calming device. Slow down on Indiana! That goes for you guys in the city trucks, too.
average (anonymous) says…
New Jersey from Amtrak to 13th and 13th from there to east of Haskell are also lightly-paved-over trolley tracks. The rail shows through in a few places. When you consider how long it's been since we had trolleys... that's amazing. Actually, the brick underneath pavement has lasted better as a subsurface than any road today's contractors could build.I'll also name 15th, much of the way from Connecticut to the cemeteries, as in need. Fairly busy street, too.House values in East Lawrence are pretty high by Kansas standards. The mill rate isn't particularly low, either. I doubt there are blocks of $90k-$120k homes anywhere else in Kansas with the streets we have.
George_Braziller (anonymous) says…
So why was the 700 block of Ohio chosen for a total rebuilding even to the point of pulling out the limestone curbs and all the bricks? Regardless of its state it didn't match any of the poorly maintained brick streets in East Lawrence. Oh, wait!!!! That's Old West Lawrence and one block over from where the former city manager lives. Guess I answered my own question.-----------------------------------------------------------------"Often, neighborhoods don't want to lose the charm of a brick street, but it costs about $700,000 a block to rebuild a brick street. The city is rebuilding a portion of brick street on Ohio Street, but they've been aided by a state grant that pays 80 percent of the costs."
hairshoptalk (anonymous) says…
kctwister, were do you get your info? because your wrong and wrong for claiming the city is ignorant, unless you know every employee of these city maintenance crews refrain from such ugly comments. would you like to pay more in taxes to fix your so called facts?!and for everyones info these brick streets that are so awful are a historical part on Lawrence and give great character to many historical areas, they city is keeping up with the streets demand as well as they are able and we should be much more thankful, and remember how hard the city workers are working during our hot summer!
cds (anonymous) says…
jrlii (Anonymous) says: The 1100 block of Pennsylvania St. is one of the streets where they unearthed the bricks from under layers of asphalt back in the '80s or 90s - I remember Mike Rundle recruiting people to help finish scraping up the asphalt after the pavement grinder went past __________Oh yes, I remember well the day Rundle knocked on my door to ask if I'd help clean the remaining asphalt of the street I lived on in the mid 90's. The remaining asphalts still there to this day starting right at my old house to the end of the street. Guess he didn't like my responce to his request.
George_Braziller (anonymous) says…
Brick streets actually are cheaper to maintain because there isn't any maintenance. Installed correctly they can easily last 100 years. Asphalt has a life of maybe 15 or 20 years. Yes they are more expensive up front, but they'll last pretty much forever.---------------------------------------------benmuggn (Anonymous) says: I dont no why they went back to the brick road in the first place. It cost alot more to unsurface the road to brick then it would have to
George_Braziller (anonymous) says…
Uhhhhhh --- It's been there ten years and you have never called the street department about it? Give me a break.-----------------------------------------------------cds (Anonymous) says: jrlii (Anonymous) says:The 1100 block of Pennsylvania St. is one of the streets where they unearthed the bricks from under layers of asphalt back in the '80s or 90s - I remember Mike Rundle recruiting people to help finish scraping up the asphalt after the pavement grinder went past __________Oh yes, I remember well the day Rundle knocked on my door to ask if I'd help clean the remaining asphalt of the street I lived on in the mid 90's. The remaining asphalts still there to this day starting right at my old house to the end of the street. Guess he didn't like my responce to his request.
simplyamazed (anonymous) says…
I thought there would be more on the list than what they show!
MrMister (anonymous) says…
The real problem is the "properly done" part. Even if you hired all the illegal aliens living at the Boardwalk Apartments, you couldn't afford to rebuild those brick streets "properly". And there are no contractors around here that know how to build anything properly at any cost from what I can see. I still can't figure out how come the section of Wakarusa north of 6th street has settled at every storm drain (it is less than 5 years old). Must be a self deploying traffic calming device (bet we all paid extra for that). There is a 45 mph speed limit on that stretch of road and I have seen many heavy trucks have the tires completely leave the pavement. And if Asphalt is supposed to last for 10 to 15 years, why do we have to repave Iowa street and Kasold on an annual basis? Maybe if the streets were built properly in the first place, there would be money in the budget to fix them all.
toe (anonymous) says…
More taxes will not solve the problem. The new sales tax will relieve stress on current budgets to allow growth in salaries and waste in other areas of the budget. But, the tax will probably pass because the tax eaters are in such high numbers compared to the tax makers. Oh, and earmarking funds for "streets" is not specific enough to ensure your street will ever be repaired.
bearded_gnome (anonymous) says…
HairShopTalk:the problem, Chuck in the article admitted it, is that for brick streets they're just sitting on their hands! the city crew folks are great people. it is the people who are directing them who have no vision to organize and prioritize so worst gets fixed first--he|| so it gets fixed at all...700-block of oh vs 11-00 block of Penn--exhibit A. "Where there is no vision, the people perish."
tangential_reasoners_anonymous (anonymous) says…
Personally, I prefer "the road less traveled," so I guess the answer to the question would be...the road more traveled.
killjoy (anonymous) says…
The worst mile of any street is Harvard Road between Monterey Way and Wakarusa; it has FIVE roundabouts
Meatwad (anonymous) says…
8th St. right at Kentucky is unbearable.
cds (anonymous) says…
George_Braziller (Anonymous) says: Uhhhhhh It's been there ten years and you have never called the street department about it? Give me a break.-cds (Anonymous) says:jrlii (Anonymous) says:The 1100 block of Pennsylvania St. is one of the streets where they unearthed the bricks from under layers of asphalt back in the '80s or 90s - I remember Mike Rundle recruiting people to help finish scraping up the asphalt after the pavement grinder went past __________Oh yes, I remember well the day Rundle knocked on my door to ask if I'd help clean the remaining asphalt of the street I lived on in the mid 90's. The remaining asphalts still there to this day starting right at my old house to the end of the street. Guess he didn't like my responce to his request.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Call them about what? Pave the streets they were supposed too? Get all the old remaining pavement up? Tell them just how bad of shape it was in with the pavement stripped? Your not very clear about this. If your refering to the old pieces of pavement being left, please read the last sentance of what I posted, they stoped cleaning it off because I told them I wasn't going to help because I wanted the street paved like they were supposed to do, not left looking like garbage with broken pieces of brick everywhere or spots where there was none at all.Trust me, I did everything I could about it, there was no "option" about it (other than move which I did), it had already been decided by a few people to keep the streets as they were, in cruddy condition. And now a little more than 10 years later 17 of the 50 (34%) worst streets in Lawrence are... streets that were supposed to be repaved in the mid 90's, but were not because of Rundle and a few people who wanted the cobblestone.
cds (anonymous) says…
Sorry, misquoted its 17 of 40 streets or about 43% of the worst streets being ones that were supposed to be repaved that were not.And as for it being left that way..."For the most part, our policy has been to just leave them alone," Soules said of brick streets. "We know that's not the best answer, but we need some direction."
asimpleman (anonymous) says…
While 25th street between Haskell and Harper is in good shape, it is extremely narrow. Add to that the fact that it has a sharp bend, cars park on one side of the road, and cars traveling this road often exceed the speed limit, and this is a dangerous road.
George_Braziller (anonymous) says…
No, call them about getting rid of the pile of asphalt that you said that was still there._________________________________jrlii (Anonymous) says:Call them about what? Pave the streets they were supposed too? Get all the old remaining pavement up? Tell them just how bad of shape it was in with the pavement stripped? Your not very clear about this. If your refering to the old pieces of pavement being left, please read the last sentance of what I posted, they stoped cleaning it off because I told them I wasn't going to help because I wanted the street paved like they were supposed to do, not left looking like garbage with broken pieces of brick everywhere or spots where there was none at all.Trust me, I did everything I could about it, there was no "option" about it (other than move which I did), it had already been decided by a few people to keep the streets as they were, in cruddy condition. And now a little more than 10 years later 17 of the 50 (34%) worst streets in Lawrence are: streets that were supposed to be repaved in the mid 90's, but were not because of Rundle and a few people who wanted the cobblestone.