Proposed Amtrak expansion generates excitement / LJWorld.com

Lawrence and Douglas county

Route through Kansas would connect Kansas City, Mo., to Oklahoma, Texas cities

December 29, 2008

Cities along the expanded Amtrak Heartland Flyer passenger train route that would run from Kansas City, Mo., to Fort Worth, Texas:

• Kansas (under consideration): Lawrence, Topeka, Emporia, Strong City, Newton, Wichita and Winfield/Arkansas City.

• Oklahoma: Ponca City, Perry, Guthrie, Edmond, Oklahoma City, Norman, Purcell, Pauls Valley, Davis and Ardmore.

• Texas: Gainesville, Fort Worth.

Passenger rail expansion discussed

Supporters of passenger rails are climbing aboard a new study that could help establish service into Texas. Enlarge video

On the street

Should the Amtrak passenger rail service be expanded?

Yes, I believe it would free up travel for families and businesses.

— Shawna Longhorn

More responses

Carey Maynard-Moody is no Dr. Emmett Brown, but she does share the confidence of the movie character who realized his time-traveling dreams with the help of a plutonium-powered flux capacitor.

While Maynard-Moody’s transportation vision isn’t quite so ambitious, she’s comfortable knowing that hers actually is quite realistic, now that Amtrak and the Kansas Department of Transportation are studying the feasibility of expanding passenger-rail service through Lawrence.

“It’s heartening that the state of Kansas has seen fit to fund it,” said Maynard-Moody, a Lawrence resident and co-chair of Depot Redux, a group that wants the city to acquire and restore the Burlington Northern Santa Fe depot at Seventh and New Jersey streets. “I believe, in my heart of hearts, it’s because of the public outcry. It’s huge. We want choices.

“It’s time to get back to the future.”

The study, expected to last into May or June, is designed to crunch the numbers necessary for deciding whether to pursue state financing for passenger rail service from the Kansas City area south to Oklahoma City, where it could join the daily Heartland Flyer connection to Fort Worth, Texas.

The study will provide “purely a technical and financial analysis” regarding what resources would be necessary both to get the service up and running from the Kansas city area south into Oklahoma, and to keep the system going into the future.

In Kansas, communities being studied for stops along the route are Topeka, Lawrence, Emporia, Strong City, Newton, Wichita and Winfield/Arkansas City.

“This is a great time to look into it,” said Ron Kaufman, KDOT’s chief of public involvement. “We think it has a lot of potential. It’s certainly worth studying it and finding out what it would take to do it.”

Fourteen states, including Oklahoma and Texas, already provide state-supported rail service, something Kansas has yet to venture into. Providing state money for Amtrak operations would require approval from two-thirds of both the Kansas House and Kansas Senate, Kaufman said.

KDOT already has heard plenty of interest from the public regarding passenger rail, Kaufman said. Now it’s a matter of having some detailed information available as the state compiles its next program for transportation financing, a program whose prospects are uncertain as the state grapples with budget shortfalls.

“We have to start the process,” Kaufman said. “We have to have numbers. It’s the first step.”

KDOT is spending $200,000 for the study.

Maynard-Moody is looking forward to a day when Lawrence residents and other Kansans once again have the opportunity to board a daytime train at the depot in east Lawrence. Along with the depot restoration efforts, she also is a board member for the Northern Flyer Alliance, a group seeking to extend Amtrak’s Heartland Flyer north into Kansas.

“Passenger rail is an easy sell,” she said. “There’s a collective, historic memory of what it was like when it was working. People really do want to get back to the future.”

Discussion

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29 December 2008
at 8:28 a.m.

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OwlHead (Anonymous) says…

I think this is a great idea. How fast will this train go? We need a 200+mph train to OKC and Fort Worth on a daily basis. Fast trains would be a great replacement for any/all regional and some inter-regional flights, as long as there is service at your preferred destination. I WOULD use this to get to KC as well. Not Topeka! ha.
29 December 2008
at 9:49 a.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

Train is the most cost effective way to move stuff around on a $$/lb. basis. Problem with high speed rail, is that you'd have to replace existing track or construct new track to do it. BTW, all modern trains are electric: diesel trains use the diesel engnie to turn a generator to power electric motors attached to each wheel. Making trains powered by external electricity is a lateral move; just transfers pollution to the coal plants. Now if we build more nuclear power plants…then you'd have something.I LOVE riding the train….wish we had more of em.
29 December 2008
at 10:06 a.m.

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OwlHead (Anonymous) says…

Reality, Doesn't Amtrak already service Lawrence?? Or did they stop servicing Lawrence?
29 December 2008
at 10:30 a.m.

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SettingTheRecordStraight (Anonymous) says…

The “public outcry” is “huge”? Please. Demand for passenger rail service originating through one of the least populated states in the country would be microscopic. Once this terrible idea is shot down, the government needs to forever discontinue its taxpayer-funded support of the Amtrak money vacuum. Why are we in the Heartland subsidizing an inefficient rail system that mainly serves residents of New England? Long live the passenger car and the freedom and convenience it offers.
29 December 2008
at 10:38 a.m.

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gl0ck0wn3r (Anonymous) says…

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
29 December 2008
at 10:45 a.m.

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notajayhawk (Anonymous) says…

SettingTheRecordStraight (Anonymous) says… “Once this terrible idea is shot down, the government needs to forever discontinue its taxpayer-funded support of the Amtrak money vacuum.”Did you miss the results of the vote for the mT? While many will blame the politicians in Washington (or Topeka or wherever), the fact is that Americans have a long history of supporting and voting for projects which neither they nor anyone else will ever use.
29 December 2008
at 11:02 a.m.

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TheStig (Anonymous) says…

not_so_greek (Anonymous) says… “Me wanting a Zepplin terminal doesn't make it economically feasible.”The post office should bring back the Pony Express and I want daily stage coach service to Dodge City and Tombstone first!

29 December 2008
at 11:05 a.m.

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was_freashpowder2 (Alexander Neighbors) says…

Reality_Check .you are wrong the top speed of Amtrak train is 130-150 mph on a track that is straight for at least 10 miles w/ good conditions.You should probably Ride amtrak with a GPS unit before you make your hypothesis.I think it would be a great Idea for AMtrak.those people who work in KC could take the train to work and the train back home and it would be much cheaper than driving and less stressful.
29 December 2008
at 11:19 a.m.

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mizzou_jayhawk (Anonymous) says…

The first small place to start would be to start in Kansas City and coordinate the arrival of the Kansas City Mule (St. Louis to Kansas City) and the St. Louis Mule (Kansas City to St. Louis) with the arrival / departure of the Southwest Chief. Right now if I want to hop on Amtrak for St. Louis or Chicago I have about an 8 hour layover in Kansas City. Thus making the trip take a considerable amount of time longer than actually driving, thereby eliminating most of the incentive to take the train. Understandably one of the big issues that Amtrak has is that is shares track with the freight railroads and the Mules operate on a near capacity Union Pacific line across the state, where the freight trains are far too often too long to be able to use the sidings and let Amtrak pass. Once double trackage is in place across Missouri then that will drastically improve the service.
29 December 2008
at 11:46 a.m.

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jplanet (Anonymous) says…

It would be great to make my daily commute to Topeka by train, but I've heard the turnpike authority won't let such a plan come to be. If all the commuters are on the train instead of the turnpike how ever will the turnpike make money?
29 December 2008
at 12:57 p.m.

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mightyquin (Anonymous) says…

I am in favor of anything that gets idiots and their cell phones off the roads. Trains, buses, stagecoaches, rickshaws whatever.
29 December 2008
at 1:28 p.m.

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TheStig (Anonymous) says…

was_freashpowder2 (Alexander Neighbors) says… “those people who work in KC could take the train to work and the train back home and it would be much cheaper than driving and less stressful.”This was a joke, right? I live in Lawrence and my commute takes less time than the people I work with who line in KC! Seriously, unless the train would drop me literally at the door a commute by train would take longer and use more petrol.
29 December 2008
at 1:44 p.m.

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snap_pop_no_crackle (Anonymous) says…

When we reach Europe's population density, we will probably be able to afford their style of passenger rail system.
29 December 2008
at 2:14 p.m.

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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…

TheStig (Anonymous) says… “This was a joke, right? I live in Lawrence and my commute takes less time than the people I work with who line in KC! Seriously, unless the train would drop me literally at the door a commute by train would take longer and use more petrol.”More often than not the proponents of light rail and trains are never the ones that would use them. They have no idea what they are talking about, think that the Midwest is as densely populated as the East Coast, or think they are just being all 'Europy' and 'progressivey' or watched some German art major's show-n-tell project. I have yet to meet anyone who actually commutes to the KC Metro Area who believes it would be even remotely feasible between Lawrence and KC.For some quick facts (not that anyone will pay the slightest attention) the KC Metro Area (Kansas City, MO, Overland Park, Kansas City, KS, Independence, Shawnee, Olathe, Lee's Summit, Liberty, Gladstone) is as close as makes no difference to 8,000 sq. miles! The KC Metro Area has a population density of only 252.8 people/sq. mile which is LESS than Lawrence's 3,153.2 people/sq mile!!!!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_CitySo unless every commuter in Lawrence works in downtown KC this would be beyond moronic. BTW, if you work in downtown KC you also get the honor of paying an extra income tax so most employers are doing their best to LEAVE downtown KC and move to Overland Park, or Olathe, or Lenexa, or Lee's Summit, or Liberty.
29 December 2008
at 2:15 p.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

“unless the train would drop me literally at the door a commute by train would take longer and use more petrol.”True about taking more time. False about the petrol.

29 December 2008
at 2:33 p.m.

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madameX (Anonymous) says…

As a proponent of public transit in general who works in KCK and lives in Lawrence, I can safely say that if there was a viable option besides driving I would do it. I did the math and at 38 miles each way, $1.40 a gallon for gas (and who knows whether or not that will last) and about 28 mpg, I spend $76 a month on my commute, not counting car maintenance costs. They key word is viable. The problem with commuter rail to KC is that it's just about impossible to get around the city once you're there if you don't have a car.
29 December 2008
at 2:45 p.m.

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TheStig (Anonymous) says…

salad (Anonymous) says…“True about taking more time.False about the petrol.”True on both counts. Unless the train is full on every trip it makes, both back and forth each day. My car only goes once a day but the train will have to run multiple times each day and often times it won't be full. You have to add that in that waste somewhere. In addition, the connector to and from the stations (both in Lawrence and in KC) must get greater than 35 miles to the gallon, which is what my car gets at 65 mph for 65 of my 70 mile daily commute. I use roughly 2 gallons of gas on my commute, there is no way light rail and connectors can do that for less, and if I car pool with just one person that is cut to one gallon, KC and back!
29 December 2008
at 4 p.m.

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none2 (Anonymous) says…

Sigmund (Anonymous) says…”…For some quick facts (not that anyone will pay the slightest attention) the KC Metro Area (Kansas City, MO, Overland Park, Kansas City, KS, Independence, Shawnee, Olathe, Lee's Summit, Liberty, Gladstone) is as close as makes no difference to 8,000 sq. miles! The KC Metro Area has a population density of only 252.8 people/sq. mile which is LESS than Lawrence's 3,153.2 people/sq mile!!!!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City…”======================================Excellent post. I think lots of think it would be nice to think we “could” have more passenger rail connections. However, sometimes it takes a dose of reality to understand the consequences — especially financially.I have always envisioned a system of major arteries for freight and passenger that something like rail handle. Then off those main routes are buses (passenger) and truck (freight). However, I'm sure there are consequences for such and idea too. Not being a subject matter expert, I simply call it my particular vision.
29 December 2008
at 6:35 p.m.

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gccs14r (Anonymous) says…

I looked at the bus schedule to see about getting to 8700 State Line from Lawrence and back. Can't be done in less than three days, but that's mostly the fault of Johnson County. From reading the bus schedules there, it appears that a lot of their busses run once in the morning and once in the evening and not at all during the day. That's not a user-friendly system.
29 December 2008
at 6:52 p.m.

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mizzou_jayhawk (Anonymous) says…

One other simple solution would be to extend the Missouri Mule service all the way to Topeka. Granted you'd have to adjust the departure times to make it fiesable to ride from Topeka via Lawrence to KC or vice-versa. Then all you need to do is to create a monthly pass program and price it around $80-85/month/person. Currently the eastbound Southwest Chief stops in Topkea at 5:20AM arriving at KC Union Station at 7:26AM with a stop in Lawrence at 5:49 AM. One way cost from Topeka to KC: $30, Topeka to Lawrence, $18. The westbound Southwest Chief departs Kansas City at 10:55PM arriving in Topeka at 1:06 AM the next day. This is where the problem is. Amtrak works in the eastbound direction but the westbound direction does not work, and if you can't get home then the service is useless….So here's the magic solution. The Missouri (Kansas City) Mule Arrives in Kansas City from St. Louis at 2:11PM. Now if we use that rolling stock and have it depart Kansas City at 5:00PM, arriving in Topeka at 7:06PM, then have it depart Topeka at 7:30PM arriving at Kansas City at 9:36PM. The only adjustment needed by Amtrak would be to delay the return of that same rolling stock to St. Louis. Currently that return trip departs Kansas City at 4:00PM, so we'd need to move that back to perhaps 9:45PM (arriving in St. Louis at 3:25AM, rather than 9:40PM)
29 December 2008
at 6:54 p.m.

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notajayhawk (Anonymous) says…

mizzou_jayhawk (Anonymous) says… “The first small place to start would be to start in Kansas City and coordinate the arrival of the Kansas City Mule (St. Louis to Kansas City) and the St. Louis Mule (Kansas City to St. Louis) with the arrival / departure of the Southwest Chief. Right now if I want to hop on Amtrak for St. Louis or Chicago I have about an 8 hour layover in Kansas City. Thus making the trip take a considerable amount of time longer than actually driving, thereby eliminating most of the incentive to take the train.”Wanna' think this one through for a minute?If you coordinated the schedule of the Southwest Chief with the cross-Missouri train, it would then throw it out of synch with the St. Louis-Chicago leg. Oh, I suppose you could then change *THAT* time-table, but the people coming from Texas - or from farther away, say, L.A.- on the Texas Eagle might object to that. But what the heck, let's make hundreds of people traveling across the country change *their* schedule for the convenience of the dozen or so people who use the train daily from Lawrence.************************was_freashpowder2 (Alexander Neighbors) says… “those people who work in KC could take the train to work and the train back home and it would be much cheaper than driving and less stressful.”The train costs much more than my commute by car.The schedule would keep me away from home for several more hours per day; the four hours I'd have left out of the day to sleep, eat, and spend time with my family might add a little to the stress level, too. Plus there's absolutely no flexibility, like if I wanted to leave early/stay late, if one of my kids was sick, etc.Commuter trains are great in places that can support them. The train service in and out of NYC, for example, is terrific. When you've got 20 million people in a metro area with roads and air routes totally saturated and no room to make more, and you have the demand to support hourly (or half-hourly) service, commuter trains work. None of those things apply to Lawrence, or even Kansas City.
30 December 2008
at 9:48 a.m.

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none2 (Anonymous) says…

mizzou_jayhawk (Anonymous) says…”One other simple solution would be to extend the Missouri Mule service all the way to Topeka…”===============================Besides what notajayhawk said about affecting other Amtrak routes, think of the issues once you arrive at your destination — especially in Kansas City. How do you get from the Union Station to all the various places in southern Overland Park? (Some places are more than 20 miles away.) Realize that plenty of people work throughout the metro area — not just downtown KCMO. Kansas City would need a great improvement in their own local transportation footprint. As gccs14r pointed out, the JO leaves much to be desired. It is great that you think of such ideas. Just realize that there are lots of complications. I used to think the ultimate was telecommuting (move packets of information — not people) since many jobs are about using your head and not your physical presence. However, I never thought about the fact that the ultimate in telecommuting is to simply off-shore such jobs to far away places where the salaries are lower.
27 July 2009
at 4:24 p.m.

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mimbrinoclyde (Anonymous) says…

In regards to restoring service to Kansas via Amtrak on the former Santa Fe Texas Chief route through Wichita, Emporia, Topeka, and Lawrence to Kansas City and South to Oklahoma City and Texas: May I offer an old insiders, ie gov. employee and frequent rider on this former route, both under Santa Fe control and later under Amtrak. This train and route via Topeka and Lawrence was THE train between Texas, Oklahoma and middle Kansas to Kansas City and Chicago and points East. It always had superior equipment, service, and yes patronage. This especially from the college towns of Denton, TX, Norman, OK, Wichita, Emporia, and Lawrence. Many times the train was sold out and standing room only, even under Amtrak management. The two lounge cars, one for coach passengers and the other for 1st class passengers, were always the most popular places to be, even if one had to stand for an hour to get a seat! Seating and space were, especially under Amtrak, only limited due to shortage of good equipment. My point is that this particular train and route through Kansas was and still should be a premier and high patronage line. Offer good service with caring staff and good equipment and times, and it will be a winner. The line from Emporia up to Topeka and through Lawrence to Kansas City now has very little freight on it and could easily again allow speeds of FRA 89mph limits without much upgrades or expenditure. Your other contributors are correct in one respect however and that is the lack of good connections at K. City to ST. Louis or Chicago, and MOST Importantly, easy access from Union Station in downtown KC to the outlying business districts and shopping area. In this regards Kansas City is so far behind all the other major cities in rapid transit that it seems they are in a hopeless situation. Yes, I know St. Louis, Denver and Dallas Ft. Worth are not a two State city, but that is a sorry excuse for KC, especially when one considers the excellent electric bus and trolley service it had before wholesale destruction during the 1950,s. One can only hope that there are enough far sighted people up in KC on both sides of the border to work together for the betterment of the city as a whole. . It,s time for the Kansas politicians to step up to the plate and have some vision and guts for a change and do what they can to serve the people of Kansas with a truly transportation system that has service via all modes of transportation. This service should never have been taken off in the 1st place as the patronage and service were top notch. For our younger generation this is hard to believe as they have never experienced such a great way to travel. If it wern,t for some very powerful politicians down in Arkansas who orchestrated the former demise of this route for Amtrak in favor of their own route through Little Rock from St. Louis to Dallas-Ft. Worth and South Texas, we wouldn,t even have to have this lesson in history. Hope any of the above helps.