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Archive for Sunday, December 28, 2008

Israel drops 100 tons of bombs on Gaza Strip

December 28, 2008

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An injured Palestinian is helped from the rubble following an Israeli missile strike in Rafah, southern Gaza Strip, Saturday, Dec. 27, 2008. Israeli warplanes retaliating for rocket fire from Gaza pounded dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory in unprecedented waves of air strikes Saturday, killing at least 155 and wounding more than 310 in the bloodiest day in Gaza in decades.

An injured Palestinian is helped from the rubble following an Israeli missile strike in Rafah, southern Gaza Strip, Saturday, Dec. 27, 2008. Israeli warplanes retaliating for rocket fire from Gaza pounded dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory in unprecedented waves of air strikes Saturday, killing at least 155 and wounding more than 310 in the bloodiest day in Gaza in decades.

— Israeli warplanes rained more than 100 tons of bombs on security sites in Hamas-ruled Gaza Saturday and early today, killing at least 230 people in one of the Mideast conflict’s bloodiest assaults in decades. The government said the open-ended campaign was aimed at stopping rocket attacks that have traumatized southern Israel.

Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead. More than 400 people were also wounded.

The unprecedented assault sparked protests and condemnations throughout the Arab world, and many of Israel’s Western allies urged restraint, though the U.S. blamed Hamas for the fighting.

But there was no end in sight. The first round of strikes began around noon Saturday followed by successive waves of attacks that continued into the early hours today.

Israel warned it might go after Hamas’ leaders, and militants kept pelting Israel with rockets — killing at least one Israeli and wounding six.

Hundreds of Israeli infantry and armored corps troops headed for the Gaza border in preparation for a possible ground invasion, military officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity under army guidelines.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said late Saturday that the goal was “to bring about a fundamental improvement in the security situation.” He added, “It could take some time.”

The Israeli airstrikes caused widespread panic and confusion, and black plumes of smoke billowed above the territory, ruled by the Islamic militant Hamas for the past 18 months. Some of the Israeli missiles struck in densely populated areas as students were leaving school, and women rushed into the streets frantically looking for their children.

The offensive began eight days after a six-month truce between Israel and the militants expired. The Israeli army says Palestinian militants have fired some 300 rockets and mortars at Israeli targets over the past week, and 10 times that number over the past year.

“There is a time for calm and there is a time for fighting, and now is the time for fighting,” said Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak, vowing to expand the operation if necessary.

Comments

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"pelting Israel with rockets — killing at least one Israeli and wounding six.""Israeli warplanes rained more than 100 tons of bombs on security sites in Hamas-ruled Gaza Saturday and early today, killing at least 230 people in one of the Mideast conflict’s bloodiest assaults in decades. "As per usual, Israel proves to be much more violent and murderous than Hamas.

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TacoBob 5 years, 10 months ago

So you would have a limp-wristed response to your neighbor firing over 300 rockets at you in just the last week? Just because they were fortunate enough not to have caused great damage does not mean they won't going forward. Their rocket attacks are becoming more long range, frequent and accurate. An enemy that is attacking you and is bent on your destruction needs to be incapacitated. Hamas - a terrorist organization, BTW - instigated this. Even Abbas is against them and is urging them to stop.

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repaste 5 years, 10 months ago

The US will pay the price of heavy handed actions of Isreal. 9-11 was about this as well, the Hamas rockets are are against the occupation by Isreal. The war on terror begins and ends there. terrorist or freedom fighter? If someone brutally occupied Kansas, you and I might be the "terrorists".

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Kathy Getto 5 years, 10 months ago

bozo - you are correct. I just don't understand why many folks refuse to admit to Israel's terrorism.

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cowboy 5 years, 10 months ago

Whats your solution Bozo , this seems well timed by Israel in a bit of a power vacuum . Seems to me Israel has accepted that they live in an unstable environ and occasionally have to drive the attacks backwards from the borders. 20 centuries of hate seems impossible to overcome. I'm no fan of either side . Hatfield & McCoy's redux.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 10 months ago

pha, knew I shouldn't have read this thread.

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Fort_Aubrey 5 years, 10 months ago

"Israel drops 100 tons of bombs on Gaza Strip"Oh, and Merry Christmas

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gl0ck0wn3r 5 years, 10 months ago

"just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says… As per usual, Israel proves to be much more violent and murderous than Hamas."Right... I suppose all those rockets fired on a daily basis into Israel don't count. Sure, the Israelis are more effective, but Hamas had plenty of warnings to stop attacking Israel and they've continued to do so. Where was your outrage last week when a Hamas rocket fell short and killed two Palestinian girls?

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

" An enemy that is attacking you and is bent on your destruction needs to be incapacitated."Yep, that's exactly the mindset that Hamas has towards Israel, and rightwing Israelis towards Palestinians.I say send all the fundy warmongers on each side to a desert island and let them kill each other off.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

“pelting Israel with rockets — killing at least one Israeli and wounding six.”Although this story doesn't explain it clearly, these above described attacks happened AFTER this massive Israeli bombing attack. In other words, Israel was retaliating for strikes that had caused NO casualties by Israelis. Now Hamas is threatening even greater attacks, possibly by suicide bombers, so rather than making Israelis more secure, this stupid escalation by Israel will likely make Israelis less safe. But heck, at least they got to cheer about dead Palestinian babies before they meet their own untimely ends, which will in turn "justify" even greater violence by Israel. So much for BushCo's plan to bring peace to the Mideast before leaving office.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"The nuts here more or less see eye to eye with this nut over there."Yes, you do, Tom.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"Why single out Bush?"Well, because he said it would be the focus of his last year in office, that's why.

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Flap Doodle 5 years, 10 months ago

Hasn't the O'dude flexed his pecs & eliminated all strife from the world yet?

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"Hasn't the O'dude flexed his pecs & eliminated all strife from the world yet?"It'll be a giant leap forward from BushCo if he just isn't the main source of violence and strife in the world.

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gl0ck0wn3r 5 years, 10 months ago

Bozo, I assume if a neighboring country started firing rockets down into your neighborhood that you'd be cool about the whole thing?

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

Why don't you ask the Palestinians that, Glock? I mean, they get hit with a lot more missiles and bombs than the Israelis do.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

Not to mention a full-out blockade trying to starve them into submission.

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FMT6488 5 years, 10 months ago

War, battle,etc.(whatever you wish to call physical conflict) is all about beating your opponent until he can no longer continue the fight. If this is not done, your enemy will rise again to fight you later. Before the actual fight, you maneuver to attempt to improve your fighting ability (this can be physical - moving your forces, or political - using various resources to put pressure on your opponent). -In my own words, but basically the same thing mentioned in an ancient war manual: The five rings. (This book is still required reading for most military officers - the ENTIRE worlds' military, not just the USA's)

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gl0ck0wn3r 5 years, 10 months ago

"just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says… Why don't you ask the Palestinians that, Glock? I mean, they get hit with a lot more missiles and bombs than the Israelis do."Easy solution: my guess is that if the Palestinians ceased firing rockets and other explosives into Israel, Israel would cease bombing Palestine controlled areas. For example, last week, Israel wasn't bombing Hamas and yet Hamas was firing rockets at Israel. Hamas was warned. Hamas continued firing rockets and Israel responded. What do they expect?Regarding "starving" Gaza - why is it Israel's responsibility to allow free travel through its territory or to allow the importation of weaponry into Gaza for the purpose of attacking Israel?Again, I'm asking you - what response would you prefer? If your neighborhood was under constant rocket attack, how would you prefer the government to respond?

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gl0ck0wn3r 5 years, 10 months ago

"invictus (Anonymous) says… If you control the air you win, at least in modern conflict."Untrue.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

It's a vicious circle, Glock, and Israel is just as responsible for perpetuating it as the Palestinians are. Blaming it all on the Palestinians, who die in much greater numbers and who suffer much greater economic hardship as a direct result of Israeli policies and actions, is just not logical.There are sane folks on each side who have the maturity and the sense to stop it, but, unfortunately, the hateful, racist, murdering minorities on each side are the ones who keep it going. Can it be stopped? I hope so, but until it is, neither side has any claim to the moral high ground.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

You've enlisted a whole army of strawmen, Marion.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"for trying to make the SLT all about racism,"Thanks for sticking up for me, sort of, but since you've changed the subject, I will say that the SLT is primarily about the selfish need for convenience, and the ability to deny that does have its roots in racism, although there are a good number of folks, well represented on this forum, who would love to see the SLT put through the wetlands purely out of spite-- racist spite.

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 10 months ago

As a supporter of the palestinian cause I fully believe that hamas brought this on themselves. There was a treaty with no aggression. 8 Days after it expires they start to lob missles. Israel Defends with excessive force. To all those that defend hamas you'll notice no aggression has come upon the west bank and fatah controlled areas. Hamas has no interest in peace and therefore will not receive peace. Fatah and abbas(mazen) will have the last laugh when they broker a deal with israel and create some semblance of peace and their own country.

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jaywalker 5 years, 10 months ago

"It'll be a giant leap forward from BushCo if he just isn't the main source of violence and strife in the world."Excellent. No chance the 'main source of violence and strife in the world' is actually the Islamic extremists, brain trust? Over 100 armed conflicts going on in the world, more than 80% of them involving muslims, and Bush is the main source? Don't let the facts get in the way of a good hate-fest. So ignorant and paranoid he's funny. God bless bozo.

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 10 months ago

Once again tom makes no sense with random drivel about nothing. How does BO have anything to do with the current situation??One president at a time. Come back on here in a month or so.

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 10 months ago

Over 100 armed conflicts going on in the world, more than 80% of them involving muslims,Please post statistics or don't post unsupported numbers.Anyway I'd bet a larger number involve christians... Boo Ya

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 10 months ago

I meant please post support for your statistics.

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Godot 5 years, 10 months ago

Bozo would, no doubt, be happier if the Israelis were not so effective at building bomb shelters and heeding warning sirens.http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ip19n3PVWHvRgfMS8LxQmqP_AZNAD95BTQBG0

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Strontius 5 years, 10 months ago

David Brumer's article would be better titled: "An incontrovertible right to kill"No nation has the "right" to exist, and no one has the right to displace someone else of their land because of some idiotic religious claim, particularly after more than two thousand years has passed since someone once lived in that area. Defenders of Israel are defending another holocaust.

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Flap Doodle 5 years, 10 months ago

Speaking of strawmen, bozo has enough to equip every cornfield from Muleshoe to Missoula.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

Well, jaywalker, as usual, it appears I need to simplify this enough for even you to understand.BushCo is not the ONLY source of violence in the world, but the sheer quantity of death and destruction wrought by the US military under BushCo is indisputably greater than any other source over the last eight years. Or have you not heard of the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

Try as you might, folks, I'm not going to be drawn into your black and white world of "Israel-Good, Palestinians-Bad."There is plenty of fault on both sides of this conflict, and your mythologizing over the inherent infallible rambo goodness of the Israelis won't do any more to end this than the constant demonizing of Jews by many Arab and Muslim leaders.This is only going to be ended when grownups from both sides manage to get control away from the juvenile delinquents who wish nothing but to blow each other to smithereens.

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ASBESTOS 5 years, 10 months ago

"BushCo is not the ONLY source of violence in the world, but the sheer quantity of death and destruction wrought by the US military under BushCo is indisputably greater than any other source over the last eight years."Noy true in any measure. It may be your opinion, but your opinion is insane and not reflective of what is "going on" in the world.Actually Mexico is one of the most dangerous places on the face of the earth and it has nothing to do with US Policies or Muslim extremists. South America is also a caldron of murder and mayhem, and so is Africa, remember DarFur?The Palistenian/Israeli is a "popularized" conflict and is a "prennieal favorite. IF I had to chose who is "morally right" in a th majority of time, I would say Israel.Every US president tried to get these two troubled children to the Peace Table, and no matter how much land Israel Gives up, Hamas and Fatah is not satisiied, they want "all Jews" dead. If I were a "DNC member I would look at the Way Arafat screwed both Charter and Clinton, and both worked hard on the "peace Side. And Arafat sold both down the river and lied to both.The DNC ought to be more intolerant of Hamas and Fatah, even more than GOP members.

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notajayhawk 5 years, 10 months ago

beobachter (Anonymous) says… "The worst part of this is the USA is paying for these Israeli bombs."Actually, the best part.**invictus (Anonymous) says… "But pro-isreal bankers control our money supply so they control us, that is the reality."Right, forgot, all bankers are Jews. No racism implied there, I'm sure, B.O.***Fort_Aubrey (Anonymous) says… "Oh, and Merry Christmas"Just a shot in the dark here, Fort, but I'm pretty sure neither participant in this conflict puts much weight on that particular Holiday (or Holy Day).**just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says… "Although this story doesn't explain it clearly, these above described attacks happened AFTER this massive Israeli bombing attack."And of course Hamas had never done anything provocative against Israeli citizens in the past, right?"But heck, at least they got to cheer about dead Palestinian babies before they meet their own untimely ends"Tell us all, oh clown, how many of those 15 civilians were babies? Must have missed that part in the news, except on that new wire service, the "Bozo Service" (call it BS for short), "All the news that's fit to pull out of clown_rants_from_bus's adult diaper."At least boohoozo only cheers for dead Israeli babies. Too bad you weren't around a certain part of north-central Europe during the 1940's, boohoozo, you would have been absolutely giddy."Try as you might, folks, I'm not going to be drawn into your black and white world of “Israel-Good, Palestinians-Bad.”"Especially as it goes so deeply against boohoozo's ideology of "Palestinians-good, Israel-baaaaaad."**Liberty_One (Anonymous) says… "Marion, not that bozo doesn't deserve it for trying to make the SLT all about racism..."You're not keeping up with boohoozo's posts. They're ALL* about racism.***powershopper (Anonymous) says… "This is Israel is sending Iran a message."Call it warming up the pitching staff in the bullpen.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

There have been a million, maybe more, civilians killed in Iraq over the last 6 1/2 years. There has been no greater violence anywhere on the planet in that time, Asbestos. Add in the carnage in Afghanistan, and BushCo is by far the most violent and deadly force on the planet.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

Are you having flashbacks to your HJ days, Marion?

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RedwoodCoast 5 years, 10 months ago

"The unprecedented assault sparked protests and condemnations throughout the Arab world, and many of Israel’s Western allies urged restraint, though the U.S. blamed Hamas for the fighting."Of course, Israel is never to blame in any of this. You know, I am not anti-Semitic, but to hold Israel blameless in the BS violence going on in that part of the world is just perpetuating the polarization of us (US, EU, Israel) vs. them (Islamic nations). Israel needs to be held accountable for its actions, just as Iran and other Arab nations need to be held accountable for their actions.Remember, Israel is a nation, not an ethnic group.

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Harpo 5 years, 10 months ago

rooster (Anonymous) says… As a supporter of the palestinian cause I fully believe that hamas brought this on themselves.There was a treaty with no aggression.8 Days after it expires they start to lob missles.Israel Defends with excessive force.To all those that defend hamas you'll notice no aggression has come upon the west bank and fatah controlled areas.Hamas has no interest in peace and therefore will not receive peace. Fatah and abbas(mazen) will have the last laugh when they broker a deal with israel and create some semblance of peace and their own country.Very well put, Rooster. My impression is that the overwhelming majority of both Israeilis and Palestinians want a lasting peace. Those who are so consumed by hatred will continue to disrupt those efforts. I believe active American involvement is crucial going forward. Syria has shown some willingness to negotiate, which would only help to neutralize Iranian influence in the whole mess.

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ilikestuff 5 years, 10 months ago

A foremost responsibilities of any government is protection of it's citizens. Israel has the right and/or responsibility to retaliate with as much force as is necessary to A) kill its enemies outright and B) to instill a surety among those whom survive that their days are numbered if they continue to act such.Hamas makes vividly clear in it's charter that Israel cannot be allowed to exist in the region known as Palestine. Israel, however, has made and is prepared to make extraordinary concessions for a Palestinian state to coexist with it in that same region.It's rather obvious that Hamas and other "organizations" committed to the utter destruction of Israel have no intention of ever coexisting with it.http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

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RedwoodCoast 5 years, 10 months ago

And not to perpetuate the BS on this thread, but... Marion, I am critical of Israel, but I have nothing against people of Jewish descent. I see this issue as being about sovereign nations and not a culture war. Racism and genocide have been intertwined with this issue for very salient reasons. I sincerely hope that you are not suggesting that I am ilk of anti-Semites.I do not claim to be an authority on the issue, nor will I attempt to suggest such. My opinion, however, is that if we ever want a peaceful Middle East, we need to start looking at this issue as an issue among sovereign nations, and I don't feel that the world is currently pursuing the issue as such. Yes, Jews have had a rough go at it, but they are not the only folks--neither in our world nor in history--to have experienced race-based discrimination and genocide. In saying this, I'm not denying that racism and genocide are about as lame as human behavior can get. I just think that in order to resolve the issue, we don't necessarily need to forget about history, but we need to look at each side of the issue, form objective opinions (no, we are not currently doing so), and proceed with policy that seeks a compromise regarding the 'wants' and 'needs' of the relevant sovereign nations.

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RedwoodCoast 5 years, 10 months ago

ilikestuff: I'm not sold on the notion that your previous post is even-handed. Why, if "A foremost responsibilities of any government is protection of it's citizens," are we threatening Iran for pursuing a type of weapon that one of their foremost cultural enemies are widely believed to possess? They are just trying to protect their citizens, right?Understand that I'm not trying to legitimize the actions of Iran any more than I am the actions of Israel; I just don't think we are holding every nation involved to the same standards.

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Harpo 5 years, 10 months ago

RedwoodCoast-I appreciate your willingness to engage in respectful, rational discussion, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with being critical of Israel. In fact most Israeli citizens engage in passionate debate and critisicm about the actions/poilicies of their government on a daily basis (democracy is funny that way). I won't attempt to speak for likestuff, but I think that it is important to recognize that Israel has never questioned the very legitimacy or right of Iran to exist, and has not vowed to wipe it off the map. The same cannot be said for Iran's position towards Israel. It's fine to want to hold every nation to the same standards, but let's not lose sight of the relevance of the marked differences in the behaviors and goals of those nations.

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RedwoodCoast 5 years, 10 months ago

Harpo, you certainly have a point with Iran's stance. However, I would emphasize the international conflict of opinion that only serves to reinforce these Israeli/Palestine doldrums. Perhaps what I intended to emphasize was that we are getting absolutely nowhere with the current policy on the Israeli/Palestine conflict. Maybe we should begin looking at it from a different perspective if we ever expect it to be resolved.

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Harpo 5 years, 10 months ago

I would be in favor of a new "approach" as opposed to a new "perspective". Perhaps it is just a distinction of semantics, but I believe the U.S. has taken the correct stance (across multiple Democratic and Republican administrations) in being first and foremost a steadfast supporter of Israel's right to exist and defend itself from real threats to its existence. However I would agree that we should be more aggressive in seeking out and engaging those responsible parties who represent the views of the Palestinians and have demonstrated a willingness to be a part of the solution. The perception in the "Muslim world" is that we are far from even-handed. I believe that perception is based largely on the propaganda of the Arab/Muslim media, but it is the perception nothetheless. We can both maintain our commitment to the security of Israel and advance the real potential of a sustainable peace by engaging anyone in the region who shows a willingness to resist the extremist views and work in good faith towards peaceful solutions.

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jaywalker 5 years, 10 months ago

'BushCo is not the ONLY source of violence in the world, but the sheer quantity of death and destruction wrought by the US military under BushCo is indisputably greater than any other source over the last eight years."You're such a jackass, bozo. I did not claim that you said Bush was the ONLY source. Your exact words were "main source". And again, If there are over 100 armed conflicts in the world and 80% of those include muslims, then your 'indisputable' BS has therefore been.....duh....disputed! 80% +!! Think we have a winner in the 'main source' department!! The U.S. is A source, not 'BushCo', and nearly everyone voted for this conflict to happen. Was it a mistake? Of course. Handled poorly? Absolutely. Completely Bush's fault? Unequivocally not! Absolutely gut wrenching to have to listen to so many hate on the Prez and blithely forget how this started and who put it in motion. This was a group effort, folks, and you can spout off as much as you want about 'Bush lied', but since a Dem led committee cleared him of just that and said he, and everyone else mind you, "acted on the best information available", then all your kvetching is little more different than a two year old with selective memory throwing an eye-rolling conniption."There have been a million, maybe more, civilians killed in Iraq over the last 6 1/2 years"A million? Cheese and rice, bozo, a person with amoebic dysentary doesn't unleash as much crappola as you do. The IBC, which is the most accurate and respected authority on the subject, puts the count between 90,000 to 98,000. I'm gonna start calling you 'Rug', 'cuz you lie like one, boyo.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"The IBC, which is the most accurate and respected authority on the subject, puts the count between 90,000 to 98,000."No, it's the one that gives a number you prefer.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"There was a treaty with no aggression."Israel has 1 1/2 million residents of Gaza under a permanent state of siege-- and such acts have always been considered acts of war."To all those that defend hamas you'll notice no aggression has come upon the west bank and fatah controlled areas."Actually, this is not true. There is ongoing, endless aggression and oppression against those who live in the West Bank. Most recently, there has been violent suppression of protests against the Israeli attacks.The members of Hamas who are launching missile attacks are criminals, but no more so than the Israelis who cause considerably more death and destruction in the mostly indiscriminate bombings on the Gaza concentration camps.

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SMe 5 years, 10 months ago

Go Israel!Nuke 'em 'til they glow.

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Trobs 5 years, 10 months ago

Bozo. Over one million dead civilians in Iraq huh?http://www.iraqbodycount.org/90,147 - 98,413Of course I've seen things as low as 8,000 and as high as 500,000. Never have I seen a statistic saying over one million.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

Iraq Body Count only counts only those deaths that can be confirmed through media reports, and in the total chaos of Iraq where reporters can't even leave their hotel rooms, any idiot should know that any such count would be much lower than the real number.The Lancet study used widely accepted techniques for estimating casualties in a war zone, and that's where the million figure comes from.

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1029 5 years, 10 months ago

Israel is the most despicable country in the world. The rest of the planet would be much better off if that selfish, delusional, troublemaking country didn't exist.

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Strontius 5 years, 10 months ago

The only person I see using anti-semetic phrases is you, Marion. I'm surprised you haven't used racist terms to describe your obvious dislike of Arab people. If you think that Israel has a "right" to exist based on their history to that land, then you better also be a staunch supporter of giving most of the United States back to the Native Americans. But then, supporting Israel has never been about their history of occupying that land. It's about being anti-arab, anti-muslim, and following some misguided religious sentiments. Israel will reap what it sows, just like the United States has for supporting that horrible country.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

As always, Robert Fisk calls this accurately for what it is.Some excerpts--"The blood-splattering has its own routine. Yes, Hamas provoked Israel's anger, just as Israel provoked Hamas's anger, which was provoked by Israel, which was provoked by Hamas, which ... See what I mean? Hamas fires rockets at Israel, Israel bombs Hamas, Hamas fires more rockets and Israel bombs again and ... Got it? And we demand security for Israel – rightly – but overlook this massive and utterly disproportionate slaughter by Israel. It was Madeleine Albright who once said that Israel was "under siege" – as if Palestinian tanks were in the streets of Tel Aviv.""Yes, let's remember Hamas's cynicism, the cynicism of all armed Islamist groups. Their need for Muslim martyrs is as crucial to them as Israel's need to create them. The lesson Israel thinks it is teaching – come to heel or we will crush you – is not the lesson Hamas is learning. Hamas needs violence to emphasise the oppression of the Palestinians – and relies on Israel to provide it. A few rockets into Israel and Israel obliges.""Yes, Israel deserves security. But these bloodbaths will not bring it. Not since 1948 have air raids protected Israel. Israel has bombed Lebanon thousands of times since 1975 and not one has eliminated "terrorism". So what was the reaction last night? The Israelis threaten ground attacks. Hamas waits for another battle. Our Western politicians crouch in their funk holes. And somewhere to the east – in a cave? a basement? on a mountainside? – a well-known man in a turban smiles."http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-leaders-lie-civilians-die-and-lessons-of-history-are-ignored-1215045.html

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

Spoken like a true blue, through and through warmonger, mike.

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Flap Doodle 5 years, 10 months ago

Guess it was a mistake to hack off your neighbor who has 100% air superiority, huh?

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"But you have no trouble with the destruction of Israel, right?"Strawman alert.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"The only way to logically end the conflict once and for all, is for one side to destroy the other."I fail to see any logic in that.

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Flap Doodle 5 years, 10 months ago

King of the strawmen is calling out somebody else? I lol.BTW, at least bozo's branched out to name-calling to vary his message.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

If a total military victory were achievable, Israel would have it by now.But it's not up to me, or you, to propose anything. The people who live there need to figure this out, which is going to have to mean removing the ability of the fundies on each side, who each think God is on their side, to commit their acts of carnage.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

I should add that it's up to the Palestinians to get rid of Hamas, just as it's up to the Israelis to get rid of their own wackjobs who think that they are "God's chosen people" who can kill anyone they want with impunity.

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Pinhead_Identifier 5 years, 10 months ago

Why do the pinheaded liberals always stick up for the terrorists? Why do hamas get a nod from you hard core liberal pinheads. This blog is crawling with pinead liberals who root for the bad guy. What's wrong with you pinheads anyway? Did your mommy and daddy treat you badly as a kid?

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Pinhead_Identifier 5 years, 10 months ago

Israel should drop a 100 tons of sh!t on hamas headquarters or would they take that as a compliment.

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Pinhead_Identifier 5 years, 10 months ago

Noma Chomskys is a liberal pinheaded douche bag hypocrite mother f*cker, don't you know that you pinhead asiacne?

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jaywalker 5 years, 10 months ago

“The IBC, which is the most accurate and respected authority on the subject, puts the count between 90,000 to 98,000.”Bozo: "No, it's the one that gives a number you prefer."Riiight. I don't prefer any number, you absolute mental midget. Just the facts. Unlike you, who uses the ....what? Lancet study? Hmmmm."The Lancet study used widely accepted techniques for estimating casualties in a war zone, and that's where the million figure comes from."The Lancet study uses the IBC, nimrod, and then extrapolates mathematical probabilities to grossly exaggerate a count. So apparently it is YOU who wants a ridiculous number like a million as Lancet is the only of dozens to top such a figure. From IBC:"Iraq Body Count does not include casualty estimates or projections in its database. It only includes individual or cumulative deaths as directly reported by the media or tallied by official bodies (for instance, by hospitals, morgues and, in a few cases so far, NGOs), and subsequently reported in the media. In other words, each entry in the Iraq Body Count data base represents deaths which have actually been recorded by appropriate witnesses - not "possible" or even "probable" deaths. The Lancet study's headline figure of excess deaths is a probabilistic projection from a small number of reported deaths - most of them from aerial weaponry - in a sample of 988 households to the entire Iraqi population""..widely accepted techniques"? Like polling? And limited to a 1% poll based on mostly aerial bombings? The depth of your intellectual dishonesty is staggering, bozo. So, in your pea-brained estimation, with complete disregard for objectivity, actual-factual death counts are just plain silly. Better to have someone "poll" for the number you prefer. Absolutely brilliant, bozo. Why am I surprised? Waiting for another lie, bozo. Serve 'em up.

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Kathy Getto 5 years, 10 months ago

Oh, dear, Mike - if you are going to only read what wikipedia has to say about Chomsky, you should at least read all of it. What a fascinating man! One of my favorite quotes of his:"The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history."ariadne: Nice of you to try to educate the posters here, but it will fall on deaf ears, I fear. I do, however, admire your ability to ignore the fly-speck calling himself a man who's only defense is to call another an antiSemite.

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 10 months ago

Bozo Says: Actually, this is not true. There is ongoing, endless aggression and oppression against those who live in the West Bank. Most recently, there has been violent suppression of protests against the Israeli attacks.Lets not mix apples with oranges, fool Comparing a war with missles from gaza and missles from israel is not the same as a supposed suppression of a protest... p.s. please provide verification of the supposed violent suppression. Bozo Says: The members of Hamas who are launching missile attacks are criminals, but no more so than the Israelis who cause considerably more death and destruction in the mostly indiscriminate bombings on the Gaza concentration camps.A criminal is a criminal, in this case one criminal happens to have more sophistication and better aim.. So back to what is relatively important here, who in the last few weeks started the aggressive tactics after the treaty expired. Please try to keep the posts remotely intellectual.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 10 months ago

Marion says: "You have maybe an idea for a new Final Solution?What the heck more proof do you people need of the rampant ant-Semitism which infects this board?"Marion, it was less than a few months ago that you went ballistic at me for daring to suggest the possibility that you might have hate for liberals and socialists, and you claimed that I was repeating, if I recall, "The Big Lie" to silence your beliefs and any viewpoint alternative to mine. So, are you going to man up and admit your hypocrisy, or are you going to spin spin spin?Inquiring minds want to know, hypocrite.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"Please try to keep the posts remotely intellectual."So, if I follow your example, I would accomplish that by addressing you as "fool.""who in the last few weeks started the aggressive tactics after the treaty expired."Scroll up a few posts to where I quoted Robert Fisk. That pretty well sums it up-- in other words, trying to distill this down to who started it futile. Both sides are equally culpable in perpetuating it. Hamas may have pissed off Israel with its launch of a few missiles (which hardly ever kill anybody,) but given that Israel has had Gaza and its 1 1/2 million inhabitants blockaded for years now, it can hardly be said that Hamas was unprovoked. And the treatment of Arabs on the West Bank isn't a whole lot better.Condemn Hamas all you want, because they mostly deserve it, but applying a different standard to Israel doesn't help anything.

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frank mcguinness 5 years, 10 months ago

Bozo Says, Scroll up a few posts to where I quoted Robert Fisk. That pretty well sums it up— in other words, trying to distill this down to who started it futile.If the article was about who started the whole Israel/Palestine conflict then yes the discussion would be futile. Since we are discussing the current round of attacks and war discussing who started this round is not futile and is actually very pertinent. Next time Israel starts the aggression we can blame them. Actually I'll be the first to condemn them. By the way this statement of yours is laughable: Hamas may have pissed off Israel with its launch of a few missiles (which hardly ever kill anybody) 300 missles and a few dead is now a few nor hardly.Let me remind you I support the palestinian cause but the hamas approach will get no where.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 5 years, 10 months ago

"Since we are discussing the current round of attacks and war discussing who started this round is not futile and is actually very pertinent."Let me repeat a quote from Fisk again.“Yes, let's remember Hamas's cynicism, the cynicism of all armed Islamist groups. Their need for Muslim martyrs is as crucial to them as Israel's need to create them. The lesson Israel thinks it is teaching – come to heel or we will crush you – is not the lesson Hamas is learning. Hamas needs violence to emphasise the oppression of the Palestinians – and relies on Israel to provide it. A few rockets into Israel and Israel obliges.”"By the way this statement of yours is laughable: Hamas may have pissed off Israel with its launch of a few missiles (which hardly ever kill anybody)"Laugh if you want, but the simple fact is that Hamas's missile launches over the last several years have killed about a dozen people, while Israeli attacks on Palestinians have killed thousands (more than 300 just yesterday.)"Let me remind you I support the palestinian cause but the hamas approach will get no where."And where have I supported Hamas's actions? I condemn Hamas, too, -- I merely refuse to apply a different standard towards Israel.

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jaywalker 5 years, 10 months ago

No response from bozo. Shocker. Too blinded by bias, too intellectually void to counter an argument with verifiable fact, too full of dishonesty to admit when he's wrong. You're a sad, pathetic little man, bozo. Very sad.

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TacoBob 5 years, 10 months ago

Bozo wants to keep the deaths equal, then all will be fair.Israel has fought extermination, literally, for the last 60+ years. They are not the aggressor - almost every country in the region wants to finish them off. and we have been pretty much their only defender in most cases. Multiple mllions dead - I'm inclined to give Israel a break, but they don't need it. They are not in the wrong and we should be proud in supporting them.Don't forget who is pulling the strings here - Iran. Support the Palestinians, sure, but they, and many on this thread, are being played by Hamas. Perhaps the Palestinians should rally against the real terrorists - Hamas - and we should do the same. Then maybe there could be real progress.

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oldvet 5 years, 10 months ago

Too bad it wasn't 500 tons of bombs... when militant Islam is erased from the earth and from people's memories, then there might be a chance for peace in this world...

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jonas_opines 5 years, 10 months ago

The spin then, Marion? So sad. I suppose you probably don't have a choice.

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tunahelper 5 years, 10 months ago

Go Israel! Nuke those terrorists back into the stone age!Israel has every right to defend themselves, hamas is a bunch of pussy terrorists that attack unarmed civilians.I hope Israel goes in and wipes them all out. Nobody wants the palestinians, none of the other arab or muslim countries wants them. Go Israel!

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jengaman 5 years, 10 months ago

Only 100 tons? That's weaksauce Israel...bring the heat!

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TacoBob 5 years, 10 months ago

Typical Hamas tactic - attack from neighborhoods, schools, mosques, etc. Make your countrymen, women and children the targets by using them as shields.Duplenty, methinks your disgust is misplaced. How about pointing the finger at the terrorists - the glorious fighters of Hamas and their 'noble' tactics.To think Israel is targeting innocents is laughable. They are going after known locations of terrorists. Perhaps the Palestinians should get some concrete pumped up their spines and rise up against these thugs who bring death to their families by operating among them.

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TacoBob 5 years, 10 months ago

'Disproportionate response' is a construct of academia and the UN. Per madmike, what should our response have been to Japan? Perhaps a light tap on each cheek with our riding gloves would have shown them! Or maybe we should have agreed to a cease fire and rolled over when it was broken repeatedly.Israel is trying to make the rocket attacks stop. If they don't act swiftly and with great force, it will continue, and Hamas will kill more and more 'innocents'. Over 1 million people are now at risk in the targeting of these rockets, and they will only get more accurate.With most of the world trying to exterminate you, and millions (that's millions with an M) executed during WWII, how could a country respond any other way. Hamas broke the cease fire, but Israel will step up and agree to another cease fire (and honor it) if the rocket attacks stop. But Hamas will only stop once they sustain enough losses, plain and simple.Pick the guys in the white hats for once. And remember that pesky thing called the Holocaust and unprovoked attacks, and Iran, and Syria, and Saddam (RIP), and and and.....

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Kathy Getto 5 years, 10 months ago

While I do not condone the acts of Hamas, excusing Israel for their actions is unacceptable and I can only imagine done out of ignorance and fear of retaliation by a "loving god". Would the guys in white hats you speak of TacoBob include Menachim Begin, Yizhak Shamir, The Stern Gang, Ariel Sharon? Ever read about the Lavon Affair? All Israeli terrorists, killing in the name of their god.

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TacoBob 5 years, 10 months ago

Ever read the Bible Val? In context that is. Speaks to the evil of man, among many other things. All have fallen short of the glory of God.I would not bet against Israel in the long run. We already know how things will end up. These are only birth pains.

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Kathy Getto 5 years, 10 months ago

Yes, dear, I have read the bible in its entirety as well as many other BOOKS. Has nothing to do with your condoning Israel's terrorism. But, if you have accepted your god is coming and the end is near, nothing I can say will change your opinion that Israel has the right to kill innocent people and terrorize others. Poor Muslims, they worship the wrong god.

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TacoBob 5 years, 10 months ago

Context, my dear. Useful when reading books (your caps lock was stuck on, Geek Squad can help you with that) and messages on this thread. Context can help you understand and follow comments made by others. You have clearly twisted mine into comments that suit your purpose.Anyhoo, one hopes the vaunted Obama can make some progress once he is holding the reigns. Not sure if Hilary is a good resource on this issue or not. But for all our sakes, we need to get back to a cease fire soon.Peace out, home slice.

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ASBESTOS 5 years, 10 months ago

"4 Israelis have died in Hamas rocket attacks."Not quite, there are 100's of Israeli deaths and thousands of injuries over this length of time. $ Israelis may have been killed in the "most recent attacks by rocket launches" but there have been 10 this month alone. And do not for get all the bus and resturaunt bombings.Remember thos 1000's of rockets from Gaza during the Lebanon incursion. Oh Yeah that was Israels fault too wasn't it (sarcasm).You people are fools to support the Palestinians. Their leaders are thugs and murders for the most part.Do you know what sticking your head up your rear end is?

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Katara 5 years, 10 months ago

ASBESTOS (Anonymous) says… Do you know what sticking your head up your rear end is?~~~~~~~~~~~~~Nope. Perhaps you could enlighten us as you so frequently seem to engage in that sort of activity on this forum.

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oldvet 5 years, 10 months ago

don't worry, doofus, I've been called worse by better men than you...

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tangential_reasoners_anonymous 5 years, 10 months ago

... a a a h h h h h h h h a a a h h h h h h h h a a a h h h h h h h h ...

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jonas_opines 5 years, 10 months ago

"don't worry, doofus, I've been called worse by better men than you…"Maybe you should stop saying/posting some of your less thought-out ideas then, as many of them have serious flaws.

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oldvet 5 years, 10 months ago

you mean that removing all traces of militant Islam from the earth wouldn't contribute something to peace in the mid-East?

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gl0ck0wn3r 5 years, 10 months ago

This thread summarizes everything that is wrong with Lawrence. A bunch of tools citing Chomsky as cover for their "progressive" anti-Jewish blather. It is hilarious to read posts defending Islamic extremism by people who consider themselves liberal human rights crusaders. The ironic contradiction is lovely. It is also amusing to read posts in which weapons like cluster bombs are decried as "against the Geneva convention." Since when?"TacoBob (Anonymous) says… 'Disproportionate response' is a construct of academia and the UN."Damn straight - finally someone gets it.

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gl0ck0wn3r 5 years, 10 months ago

"duplenty (Anonymous) says… Damn straight - killing children is f*g awesome."Fascinating. Where were you when a Hamas rocket killed two Palestinian girls last week? Where are you when Hamas launches unguided rockets - 10,000 of them since 2001 - into Israel at entirely non-military targets? Where was your outrage then? I assume during the Lebanon conflict when it was proven time and again that Hezbollah forces intentionally* placed weapons in civilian areas that you were outraged at Hezbollah's disregard for civilians? Oh right, it's only the Jews that are at fault here. I forgot.

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Bob Zimmerman 5 years, 10 months ago

Hold it. Can't the US work behind the scenes and "lean" on the Arab countries (e.g. Iran, Syria) that fund Hamas to get Hamas to sit at the table and negotiate a peace settlement?Ooops. I forgot. The US can only invade Arab countries. We can't negotiate with them. Oh well, at least Israel is a good customer for our most expensive weapon systems and they will need to be re-stocked.

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ASBESTOS 5 years, 10 months ago

"What period of time are you talking about? I'm talking about since this past weekend:“gaza campaign deaths320 - Official Gaza toll (source: UN)62 civilians in Gaza (source: UN)4 civilians in Israel (source: Israel police)”"Well I guess if you only "Keep Score" during the time of the Israeli Offensive, Hamas and the Palisestinians would be faring pretty badly. But you for get the hundreds of deaths ofrom Rockets since 2001, and the Bus and Resturaunt bombings as well. There are easily thousands of Israeli deaths. Hamsa and and the Palestinians would have less death from civilians if they would quit hiding and launching the damned rockets from civilian areas.Remember that this is the tactic of these islamic poo heads, hide and use the weapon within areas of civilian "human shields".Doesn't work too well does it" Kills lots of civilisans with the chicken (((( Hamsa firing rockets and stageing them in civilian homes. Gets hit, kills people.Why would one make a target of civilians anyway, especially "your own"?So get off your "moral high horse" because it is a figment of your delusion.See the world as it is, and Hamas and Hezbollah are bad.What are you going to say when they lied and back stab Pres. Obama? (Like they have done to every POTUS.)What will you say about them then?

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oldvet 5 years, 10 months ago

don't ya just love the smell of napalm in the morning... ;-)

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jonas_opines 5 years, 10 months ago

"you mean that removing all traces of militant Islam from the earth wouldn't contribute something to peace in the mid-East?"In the end, I don't see how you can think this. The actions and methods necessary to accomplish your idea would likely make the area less stable and more prone to violence, not the other way around.

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ASBESTOS 5 years, 10 months ago

"That's really funny, guy. Someone ought to punch you in the face."That's rich, the peacenick admonishes the "warhawk" and just to make his point about supporting a "peace Love" violence free position he does waht?Yep, threatens violence.Whatta loser!

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TacoBob 5 years, 10 months ago

'....punch you in the face'Finally, a good example of a 'disproportionate response'.grinAll opinions aside, Happy New Year to you all!

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gl0ck0wn3r 5 years, 10 months ago

"bennyoates (Anonymous) says…To kick off another new year on these message boards, here's a charming bit of insight from Joe Stalin, dead but not forgotten, tailor-made for the “kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out crowd” weighing in on the Israeli-Palestinian tragedies..."What an amusingly ill-informed post. Stalin would have been much more comfortable in the anti-Jewish, faux-progressive crowd in Lawrence. Stalin's world view had much more in common with those who would like to see Israel destroyed and a "progressive" centrally managed economy/life in Lawrence and elsewhere.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 10 months ago

"Stalin's world view had much more in common with those who would like to see Israel destroyed and a “progressive” centrally managed economy/life in Lawrence and elsewhere."Errr. . . . right. Because those two things Always go together. Always!The amusing thing is that you led off by calling someone Else's post amusingly ill-informed.

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uncleandyt 5 years, 10 months ago

The TRUTH is important. We will need the truth ,to fix our problems.As you type away each day here, please ask yourself, " Am I full of beans?".

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gl0ck0wn3r 5 years, 10 months ago

"jonas_opines (Anonymous) says… Errr… . right. Because those two things Always go together. Always!"Please point out to me where I said those two things always go together? I didn't. However, I've noticed an interesting trend based on the posting histories of the anti-Jewish posters in Lawrence - they also tend to be the pseudo-progressives that advocate a centrally managed technocracy. Thus, yes, in this case, Stalin would have more in common with those people.

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ASBESTOS 5 years, 10 months ago

Put down the joint, and sober up and you can then understand "logic".

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jonas_opines 5 years, 10 months ago

Glockowner: "Please point out to me where I said those two things always go together?"Sure, you ready?"those who would like to see Israel destroyed and a “progressive” centrally managed economy/life in Lawrence and elsewhere.”"I point to the usage of the word "and." If it was not your intention to say that those two things go together, you should consider not using "and."

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jonas_opines 5 years, 10 months ago

"Thus, yes, in this case, Stalin would have more in common with those people."A. . . trend, eh? Tell me, is this a trend of what, three posters or about four?

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gl0ck0wn3r 5 years, 10 months ago

Pedantic much? I point to your use of "always" relative to my use of the word "and." Using the word "and" does not suggest two things always go together - something that you suggested I was arguing. Try again.

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jonas_opines 5 years, 10 months ago

Riiiiigggght. If you wanted to make a statement about the one or two or maybe three people on this board that you interpret as being for the destruction of Israel and a centrally managed economy (and you notice I haven't even touched the likelihood of your error of interpretation, as I doubt anyone you're typecasting has actually said either of those things), then you should just be straight up and call out posters by name.For instance, when the original Stalin-name dropper came in, you could say something to the effect of:"No, poster, You are a friend of Stalin!"and then they could turn around and say something like:"I know you are but what am I?"As it is, methinks the Glockowner doth protest too much.

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