Discussion on Bill would allow religious symbols on public land / LJWorld.com

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On Bill would allow religious symbols on public land

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JayhawkFan1985 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Maybe the legislature should focus on equitably filling the billion dollar hole in the state budget over the next decade resulting from last years income tax cuts rather than right wing 1950s style morality laws that remind me of modern sharia law and the Taliban...

JayhawkFan1985 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Burkas for our women will be next...god help us with these clowns...

Ron Holzwarth 3 months, 2 weeks ago

It's just a symbol, good grief. What if some loonytoons declare that the symbol of their new religion is the flag of the United States of America? Then suddenly it would be illegal to display the US flag on public land. Don't laugh - that concept is not that outrageous.

For instance, 'Jedi', from 'Star Wars', is now an official religion.

from:
http://www.jedichurch.org/

The Jedi Church recognises that there is one all powerful force that binds all things in the universe together, and accepts all races and species from all over the universe as potential members of the religion. Join the Jedi Church today!

Hepburn 3 months, 2 weeks ago

To lift a phrase from the NRA crowd, it is the start of the "slippery slope" towards taking away our freedom of religion. It seems that they are easily against simple gun control, but want religious domination.

Take away my gun before you take away my beliefs.

Liberty275 3 months, 2 weeks ago

"Take away my gun before you take away my beliefs."

You have the order correct. If a population can be disarmed, they can be told what to believe.

You know how to stop slippery slopes? Fences. I have easily definable fences regarding your subjects. In the case of guns it is auto/semi auto and caliber, in the case of religious symbols in public, no government money, all symbols and maintenance are paid for by the religious entity and every belief must be allowed equal access. Maybe one more... you can't be forced to acknowledge them, but that would be redundant.

notaubermime 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Yes, it is a symbol. The question is what that symbol says to other people. It could say anything from "this town was founded for the purpose of being closer to our faith" to "this town is for Christians, other faiths need not apply". You might think the latter is an extreme, so is the behavior of most Christians to Muslims and atheists/agnostics.

Ron Holzwarth 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Symbols are not very effective in modifying people's behavior. They might be noticed, but are often ignored. For examples, take speed limit or stop signs.

notaubermime 3 months, 2 weeks ago

The fact that a symbol in a small Kansas town is now the subject of discussion across the state undermines any attempt to dismiss the importance of symbols.

tomatogrower 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Same for prayers in school. I grew up saying the Lord's Prayer everyday in school, and now I'm not a Christian, so they really need to rethink their battles. Maybe Christians should try finding a way to convince people that their religion is good. First, reject all the haters.

KU7679 3 months, 2 weeks ago

I don't know about changing behavior, but I know that symbols evoke responses, sometimes strong and deeply emotional. Try going into a synagogue with a swastika on your shirt and see what response you get.

DoubtingThomas 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Now THAT would be something to see! A Lifesize(Short) Statute of Master Yoda on the Lawn of our County Courthouse. I'm In!

Liberty275 3 months, 2 weeks ago

My religion is radical nihilism. I wonder if I had a town if I could have a symbol with nothing on it or if that would be illegal.

Ron Holzwarth 3 months, 2 weeks ago

It's not restricted to just one town, it's illegal to have the symbol of your faith on any public land, that is, there can be no public land with nothing on it. There has to be something on all public land, or it is in violation of the law.

Liberty275 3 months, 2 weeks ago

That's confusing.

KansasConscience 3 months, 2 weeks ago

You could have a symbol at all. The town would be too small to put one on.

kawryan 3 months, 2 weeks ago

i'm SO joining up!

These aren't the droids you're looking for....

lawslady 3 months, 2 weeks ago

They may want to get legal advice from an expert in Constitutional law and consider that some communities may have non-Christian symbols before costing the state more legal fees.

ridikkulus 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Thought the same when I read the article. Do they not understand that Christian symbols will not be the only "correct" symbols, then? Or the only ones allowed to be displayed?

appleaday 3 months, 2 weeks ago

I'd like to see what Siegfried would say about a Muslim symbol on a sign.

jonas_opines 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Probably much the same as Valarie Hodges, the Louisiana politician that supported the voucher program to send public money to religious schools, and then expressed dismay to learn that it also could go to Islamic schools.

"I actually support funding for teaching the fundamentals of America’s Founding Fathers’ religion, which is Christianity, in public schools or private schools… unfortunately it will not be limited to the Founders’ religion."

cait48 3 months, 2 weeks ago

LOL! I saw this on my FB feed. :) If we limit it to the Founders "religion", I wonder how many Deist schools we would see spring up?

DougCounty 3 months, 2 weeks ago

You know, roundabout intersections are an anti-Christian means to rid the world of crosses, replacing them with pagan Whole Earth symbols that remove the ability for folks to meet their Maker head-on as God intended.

tomatogrower 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Too funny.

jhawkinsf 3 months, 2 weeks ago

The Kansas Legislature can pass all the bills they want. If they're unconstitutional, then they're unconstitutional.

Paul R. Getto 3 months, 2 weeks ago

I'll chip in for an Anton LaVey statue. With minor editing some of his 9 principles sound like a corporate manual.

Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.
Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.
Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit.
Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates.
Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.
Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires
Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.
Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.
Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years.

You mean this one? by Paul R. Getto

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Yea, that could easily be seen as the basis for the plots for Ayn Rand's novels. Greed is Good!!!

Cant_have_it_both_ways 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Part of the answer is a loser pay court system. This would stop many of these BS lawsuits.

cait48 3 months, 2 weeks ago

It might go further toward stopping BS bills.

LarryNative 3 months, 2 weeks ago

I agree. Unfortunately, most law makers also hold a law degree and they are not about to cut off their revenue stream.

JayhawkFan1985 3 months, 2 weeks ago

That's not true in kansas. In fact, we have more legislators with just a high school education than any other state. So, when any of us say, "uneducated buffoons" we aren't that far off the mark...

kawryan 3 months, 2 weeks ago

While I wouldn't be surprised if that we're true and may very well be now, but the NYT has us in a 3-tie for for 3rd. That's from 2011. [citation]?

"Arkansas has the least formally educated Statehouse, with 25 percent of its 135 legislators not having any college experience at all, compared with 8.7 percent of lawmakers nationwide. It was followed by state legislatures in Montana (20 percent), Kansas (16 percent), South Dakota (16 percent) and Arizona (16 percent)." - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/13/education/13legis.html

Ron Holzwarth 3 months, 2 weeks ago

The loser pay system works very well in the UK, where frivolous lawsuits are virtually unknown. So, the courts are not clogged with them.

Also, litigation against doctors is very rare, because you need to be very sure that you are going to win before you hire and start paying your barrister.

deec 3 months, 2 weeks ago

I don't think that is particularly true.They have contingency lawyers just as they do here and the NHS tends to settle claims rather than litigate them.

"n 2007-08 the NHS Litigation Authority received 5,470 claims of clinical negligence against NHS bodies[34] and closed 6,679 claims.[35] During the same period, damages awarded to patients in connection with clinical negligence claims and legal costs paid by the NHS Litigation Authority amounted to £633.3 million (approximately US$886 million).[36] The average time it took the NHS Litigation Authority to deal with a claim, either to the point of conclusion or discontinuation, was 1.46 years.[37] The policy of the NHS Litigation Authority in seeking to avoid litigation is demonstrated in the statistics of the cases that it has processed. It reports that 96 percent of cases it handled were settled “out of court through a variety of methods of ‘alternative dispute resolution’ ”[38] and that over the past ten years, from all clinical claims it handled, 41 percent were abandoned by the claimant; 41 percent settled out of court; 4 percent settled in court, with these being mainly court approvals of negotiated settlements; and 14 percent remain outstanding.[39] It notes that fewer than fifty clinical negligence cases a year are contested in court.[40]"

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/medical-malpractice-liability/uk.php

msezdsit 3 months, 2 weeks ago

One of the problems with this is that our justice systems doesn't hold anything sacred about "justice" and has its hands tied with too many loopholes and tricks that attorneys use to win a case even when they know they are wrong. Plus," he holds the gold makes the rules" so the loser , in many cases, would be the winner if justice actually prevailed.

KU7679 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Does that mean all the school districts can be repaid for the lawsuits vs. the legislature? Lawsuits that the school districts continually WIN???

cait48 3 months, 2 weeks ago

I wonder if anyone knows how much of our tax dollars (indirectly) goes to support the ACLU?

UneasyRider 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Wouldn't it be nice if we could get State Legislators working on solving state's real problems?

appleaday 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Well, that's just crazy talk!

yourworstnightmare 3 months, 2 weeks ago

It is clear that when they use the word "religion", those pushing for display of religious symbols on public property really mean "christian".

UneasyRider 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Very obvious that they mean exactly that. Could we erect a huge shrine to Buddha on courthouse lawn? Maybe a good Star and Crescent Symbol? Maybe a Star of David?

msezdsit 3 months, 2 weeks ago

".....if the symbols are considered part of a community’s history or heritage."

The right wing wack job's self proclamaion of religion is "what we define it as" could make this worthless clause fit anything they wanted including "not including" any religious symbol they disapprove of.

These heathens are no more and no less than the devil in disguise and they will get their comeuppance when their day comes.

DoubtingThomas 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Amen, Brother. Testify!

In_God_we_trust 3 months, 2 weeks ago

"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father, and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not so to be." James 3:8 - 10

"Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? Let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descends not from above, but is earthly , sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good friuts, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace." James 3:13 - 18

msezdsit 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Thats ok chalk, you can't tell the difference on a lot of things. Art work is not a religious symbol and you don't speak well for yourself admitting you can't tell the difference. However we have all come to accept this about you by now.

Liberty275 3 months, 2 weeks ago

"Art work is not a religious symbol"

by Liberty275

hujiko 3 months, 2 weeks ago

This is a really dumb argument. Yes, artwork can depict religious beliefs, but to assert that artwork in itself constitutes its own religion is plain stupid.

Kathy Getto 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Agreed, hujiko. Must be that MFA talking again.

Liberty275 3 months, 2 weeks ago

"Art work is not a religious symbol"

El Greco is considered one of the greatest mannerist artists in history.

by Liberty275

hujiko 3 months, 2 weeks ago

"artwork can depict religious beliefs"

Yes. Can you?

Liberty275 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Yes. When I read the words "Art work is not a religious symbol" I know the meaning of enough words to know that it is not synonymous with "but to assert that artwork in itself constitutes its own religion is plain stupid.".

Do you really not know the difference?

msezdsit 3 months, 2 weeks ago

"We have so called "artwork" scattered all over Lawrence and considered religious symbols by the church of the extreme left." chalk for brains

If your going to make worthless points at least make them in the context that the comment was made. I know you claim to be the only art professor on the planet but:

Some artwork can be a religious symbol, however, not all art work is a religious symbol. Now, you have had your art lesson for the day.

Liberty275 3 months, 2 weeks ago

"Art work is not a religious symbol"

"Some artwork can be a religious symbol"

Thank you.

msezdsit 3 months, 2 weeks ago

ok, I think we can agree on that.

toe 3 months, 2 weeks ago

A good idea. A camper in a state park will be able to set their bible outside the trailer or tent without risking having it confiscated.

hujiko 3 months, 2 weeks ago

“I do not believe that having a cross on a sign forces an atheist to be a believer,” Siegfried says. “I just don’t believe that.”

by hujiko

Liberty275 3 months, 2 weeks ago

You can beat me with a cross and you won't make me believe in that superstitious garbage.

The Dude. He's pretty cool.

hujiko 3 months, 2 weeks ago

No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of.

JackMcKee 3 months, 2 weeks ago

There is no end to the time these clowns can waste. We should seriously consider shortening the legislative session to 2 weeks to avoid these types of bills. If you want to surround yourself with religious symbols do it at home or in church. You can wear a cross around your neck. You can carry the bible with you wherever you go. You don't need to put the stuff on every single thing, living or dead.

Just add this to the list of bills that will end up in litigation. Assuming it passes.

Agnostick 3 months, 2 weeks ago

And what is "history?"

How long is it? How deep is it? How wide is it?

Who sets that standard?

Agnostick 3 months, 2 weeks ago

BTW, one of the more recent pleasures on this lovely site has been watching the distribution of the votes, or the "thumbs up!" given to posts. Without naming specifc users, what I've noticed is that:

Moe always gives thumbs up all of Larry's and Curly's posts.

Larry always gives thumbs up to all of Curly's and Moe's posts.

Curly always gives thumbs up to all of Moe's and Larry's posts.

They also slip up and vote on their own posts, too. It's hilarious!!

agnostick@excite.com

DoubtingThomas 3 months, 2 weeks ago

How do you tell who votes thumbs up for who? Am I missing something here? If that is a feature, how do you access it? That would be Interesting to look at.

Katara 3 months, 2 weeks ago

I don't believe that is a slip up.

verity 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Not this again! I so don't care. What does bother me is the glee with which some of these idiots try to force their Christian symbols on the public.

And the last sentence of the article. Could someone say anything more ridiculous and stupid?

We will pay for an extended session because of this frivolous crap.

Slowponder 3 months, 2 weeks ago

We need to get this bill passed and signed ASAP and then watch with glee as the Phelps crowd petitions Topeka to permit them to erect one of their " God hates Fags" on the lawn between the courthouse and city hall in Topeka as part of the religious history of Topeka. No good deed goes unpunished!

riverdrifter 3 months, 2 weeks ago

And therein hangs the tale! Thank you.

loverofidiots 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Liberal thinking people like many of you want inclusivity, until it is someone who doesn't agree with your way of thinking.

cait48 3 months, 2 weeks ago

I think this is one of the funniest statements I've read in a very long time.
No, wait. That was yesterday when i read the statement by the guy that thinks women on the pill have a gazillion dead homunculi in their wombs.
But this ranks up there!

In_God_we_trust 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Sounds like a good law that will restore the true and correct intent of the 1st amendment, as it once used to be in this State and Country. May God's blessings come back upon our land as freedom to worship God freely is restored. There is always the freedom to reject God (but I don't recommend it), so God haters still have their freedom of choice.

tomatogrower 3 months, 2 weeks ago

So I can demand a Wiccan pentagram? No, I didn't think so.

Liberty275 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Why can't you? Nevermind, I'll do it for you.

I demand a Wiccan pentagram be posted at the entrance of every publicly-owned forested park in America.

Paul R. Getto 3 months, 2 weeks ago

Which god?

oldexbeat 3 months, 2 weeks ago

nice that our little town/s history now includes Buddhist and Muslims. Going to love that crescent moon being up there by that cross. And a stupa being built next to those. Wonder if these fools wanted that all along -- you know, bring in ALL the religions.

cait48 3 months, 2 weeks ago

It took a lawsuit and two and a half years before the VA would put a pentacle on the headstone of a Wiccan soldier who had died in Iraq. I can guarantee it would take a lawsuit and another two years before the state would allow one next to a cross at the capitol.
The only "freedom of religion" these people accept is the freedom of their own religion.